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1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 05-14197 CIV MOORE/LYNCH
3
DENISE HERRMANN,
4
Plaintiff,
5
-vs-
6
TOWN OF SEWALLS POINT AND LARRY
7 MCCARTY,
8 Defendants.
____________________________________/
9
10 DEPOSITION OF TINA CIECHANOWSKI
11
12 THURSDAY, MAY 4TH, 2006
10:22 a.m. - 11:57 a.m.
13
14
900 EAST OCEAN BOULEVARD
15 STUART, FLORIDA
16
17
18
Reported By:
19 Aileen Woodward, Court Reporter
Notary Public, State of Florida
20 Consor & Associates Reporting and Transcription
West Palm Beach Office
21 Phone - 561.835.9738
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:
GARY A. ISAACS, ESQUIRE
3 GARY A. ISAACS, P.A.
250 AUSTRALIAN AVENUE SOUTH
4 SUITE 1401
WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA 33401
5
On behalf of the Defendant:
6 RICHARD MCDUFF, ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, ANSELMO
7 2455 EAST SUNRISE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1000
8 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33304
9 On behalf of the Defendant:
STEPHANIE DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE
10 LEWIS, STROUD & DEUTSCH, P.L.
1900 GLADES ROAD
11 SUITE 251
BOCA RATON, FLORIDA 33431
12
13 ALSO PRESENT
DENISE HERRMANN, PLAINTIFF
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- - -
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3
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS: PAGE:
TINA CIECHANOWSKI
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ISAACS 4
4 - - -
5 N O E X H I B I T S M A R K E D
6 - - -
7 Description Page
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4
1 Deposition taken before Aileen Woodward,
2 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and
3 for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause.
4 - - -
5 Thereupon,
6 TINA CIECHANOWSKI,
7 having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined
8 and testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. ISAACS:
11 Q. State your name, please, ma'am.
12 A. Tina Ciechanowski.
13 Q. Where are you employed?
14 A. Sewalls Point Police Department.
15 Q. How long have you been so employed?
16 A. Since August of 1989. It's going to be 17
17 years almost.
18 Q. What is your position with the Sewalls
19 Point Police Department?
20 A. Lieutenant.
21 Q. Are you an actual employee of the Town or
22 police department or the Town of Sewalls Point?
23 A. I presume it's the Town of Sewalls Point.
24 Q. Spell your last name would be a good thing.
25 A. C-i-e-c-h-a-n-o-w-s-k-i.
5
1 Q. I assume you've been deposed numerous
2 occasions?
3 A. I have.
4 Q. I will skip the ground rules, other than to
5 tell you if you need to take a break at any point, feel
6 free.
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. Try to answer audibly as opposed to uh-huh
9 that you just gave me to the last comment, so she can
10 take it down. I'm sure you've done this a few times.
11 You're a lieutenant currently?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is the command structure of Sewalls
14 Point?
15 A. Chief, lieutenant, sergeant, police
16 officer.
17 Q. How many lieutenants?
18 A. One.
19 Q. One chief?
20 A. One chief.
21 Q. How many sergeants?
22 A. One.
23 Q. Who's the sergeant currently?
24 A. David Blashry.
25 Q. How many police officers?
6
1 A. Currently there are seven.
2 Q. Okay. I'm not going to ask you how that's
3 changed since '89, that's too long of a time frame.
4 Let's look at the time frame of 2002, 2003, 2004. Was
5 the structure generally the same?
6 A. On paper it was always the same. There was
7 a period of time in which we did not have a lieutenant,
8 we had a sergeant.
9 Q. You became a lieutenant when?
10 A. Around five years ago. I'm not really sure
11 of the date.
12 Q. So since that point in time, the chief has
13 always been Larry McCarty, correct?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And the lieutenant has always been you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It hasn't been any other chief? There
18 hasn't been any other lieutenants?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. During that time period, has there always
21 been one sergeant?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Has that person changed?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Tell me when you became lieutenant, who was
7
1 the sergeant?
2 A. There wasn't one when I became lieutenant.
3 Q. Did you become lieutenant based on the
4 promotion from sergeant?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were sergeant, were you the only
7 sergeant?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was the lieutenant at that point, if
10 there was one?
11 A. There wasn't one. Well, the chief was the
12 chief. Chief Larry McCarty. There was not a lot.
13 Q. Had he been bumped from lieutenant to
14 chief?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. There was a vacancy in the chief, McCarty
17 was the sole lieutenant at the time he was bumped up to
18 the chief, correct?
19 A. Yep.
20 Q. Sometime after that or perhaps at the same
21 time -- well, strike that.
22 Whose decision was it to make you
23 lieutenant?
24 A. Chief McCarty.
25 Q. So he became chief, and he had to fill the
8
1 lieutenant vacancy?
2 A. I was promoted to sergeant when he became
3 chief.
4 Q. Oh, okay.
5 Just prior to him becoming chief, he was
6 the lieutenant, right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Was there a sergeant?
9 A. No. To the best of my recollection, it's
10 confusing to me now.
11 Q. Nothing is going to rise and fall on this
12 line of questioning. I'm just getting a feel for the
13 players.
14 The chief becomes chief. Do you remember
15 that time period when that was?
16 A. More than five years ago. I'm not sure of
17 the exact dates. I really have no clue.
18 Q. It would have been before 1998?
19 A. Maybe. If you asked me before the I could
20 have checked with the office.
21 Q. We can check it. He becomes chief and it's
22 his decision to appoint a lieutenant and he appointed
23 you?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I'm sorry?
9
1 A. I got promote.
2 Q. He become chief and promotes you to
3 sergeant?
4 A. Not immediately right after, but sometime
5 after.
6 Q. Do you recall when that was?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you remember how long you remained a
9 sergeant?
10 A. No.
11 Q. More than a year?
12 A. Maybe. I honestly don't know. It could
13 have been a year, two years, could have been somewhere in
14 between.
15 Q. Could it have been five?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Could it have been six months?
18 A. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know.
19 Q. The chief makes you a lieutenant at some
20 point in time?
21 A. Some point in time. Keep in mind the chief
22 does not have that sole authority. It had to be approved
23 by the County Commission.
24 Q. It was his recommendation?
25 A. Yes.
10
1 Q. At some point, therefore, a sergeant is
2 named?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Who would that have been?
5 A. William Reep.
6 Q. How long did William Reep remain a
7 sergeant?
8 A. Until he moved to Tennessee recently.
9 Q. Define recently?
10 A. Within the last year.
11 Q. At which point the sergeant becomes whom?
12 A. David Blasher.
13 Q. When you became lieutenant, whatever date
14 that was, how many officers were beneath you in the
15 department?
16 A. If we were fully staffed, and I say if, I
17 have no idea whether we were or were not, it would have
18 been seven.
19 Q. Including you and the chief?
20 A. Including the chief and I, yeah, and the
21 sergeant.
22 Q. So --
23 A. The department had an authorized staffing
24 of nine.
25 Q. What is the authorized staffing now?
11
1 A. You said when the sergeant was promoted?
2 Q. When you became lieutenant.
3 A. Yes, we would have an authorized staffing
4 then of nine.
5 Q. Is that authorized staffing number ever
6 changed?
7 A. Someone in the last couple of year it
8 changed to 10.
9 Q. How many do you currently have?
10 A. 10.
11 Q. Can you -- why don't you give me everybody,
12 give me the 10 guys or ladies now.
13 A. That are currently working for us?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Chief Larry McCarty, myself, Sergeant David
16 Blasher.
17 Q. How long has he been with the department?
18 A. Three years maybe.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. Maybe. Officer Donlon.
21 Q. Scott Donlon?
22 A. Officer Scott Donlon, Alex Feolla, George
23 Hernandez, Armando Rodriguez, Douglas Cruz and Leonard
24 Divallas.
25 Q. Have any of those officers joined the force
12
1 within the last year?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who?
4 A. Hernandez and Rodriguez and possibly Cruz.
5 Q. Before joining the Town's Police
6 Department, and if I refer to the Town, you understand I
7 mean the Town of Sewalls Point so I can shorten it up?
8 A. Uh-huh.
9 Q. If I mean any other town, I'll let you
10 know. Before joining the Town's Police Department, where
11 were you employed?
12 A. The Edward J. Debartto Corporation.
13 Q. You didn't work for the 49's, did you?
14 A. No. No. I worked for the administration
15 at Treasure Coast.
16 Q. The mall?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long did you work for them?
19 A. Two years.
20 Q. What did you do?
21 A. I was a director of security.
22 Q. How about before that?
23 A. Before that I was like 18 years old. I was
24 almost in high school.
25 Q. We'll do it that way. Did you graduate
13
1 high school?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When?
4 A. 1985.
5 Q. And from where?
6 A. Martin County.
7 Q. Did you have any post high school formal
8 education?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell me about that.
11 A. I went to IRCC briefly.
12 Q. That's Indian River Community College?
13 A. After high school. And then I went to the
14 police academy.
15 Q. Where?
16 A. IRC College. There wasn't a separate
17 academy back then, it was on campus. And over the years
18 I have attended Barry University and graduated from there
19 with my bachelor's degree.
20 Q. In what?
21 A. Professional studies. It's a liberal arts
22 degree.
23 Q. When did you get that degree?
24 A. Last year.
25 Q. You graduated from the police academy, do
14
1 you remember the year?
2 A. '87.
3 Q. Okay. And what was your first job post
4 graduation?
5 A. I believe it was working in dispatch for
6 the Stuart Police Department.
7 Q. How long did you hold that job?
8 A. Could have been a year. Could have been
9 more, could have been less.
10 Q. Why did you leave?
11 A. I ended up getting a job at the mall.
12 Q. Okay. And I think you said you stayed
13 there two years and then came to the Town?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Why did you leave the mall?
16 A. Boredom.
17 Q. Okay. You're a certified police officer,
18 correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. When did you get that certification, upon
21 graduation of the police academy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know Deni Herrmann?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. And when did you first meet Ms. Herrmann?
15
1 A. Sometime after she moved into the Town, she
2 came to the Police Department or the Town, I don't know
3 which or why but ended up becoming a volunteer.
4 Q. From your understanding and your knowledge,
5 what did she do as a volunteer?
6 A. I don't really know. I mean, she helped
7 out with something around the police department. What
8 specifically as far as individual tasks, I couldn't tell
9 you what.
10 Q. She was painting walls?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was she removing floor?
13 A. I would not consider those to be the tasks
14 of the Police Department.
15 Q. Was she making arrests?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was she giving out tickets?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Was she doing clerical work?
20 A. Likely.
21 Q. You don't know enough to tell me what she
22 was doing?
23 A. I don't know if she answered the phones, if
24 she talked to the people that walked in. She could have
25 been dealing with the residents. You asked me
16
1 specifically what she did, I can't answer you.
2 Q. It wasn't specifically, generally.
3 A. No different than the position she was paid
4 to do.
5 Q. That was the next question. At some point
6 in time you became aware she was a paid employee of the
7 Town?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you a lieutenant at that point or were
10 you still an officer or sergeant?
11 A. I don't know. Could have been a sergeant,
12 could have been an officer.
13 Q. Okay. Were you in any way a part of the
14 decision to hire her?
15 A. Yes, I would say I was part of the
16 decision. I certainly supported the decision.
17 Q. How so?
18 A. She seemed to do a good, okay job as a
19 volunteer. She seemed friendly enough, you know, and
20 basically the limited exposure we had to her as a
21 volunteer, she seemed to be doing an okay job. And she
22 wanted the job. She knew what the job was like, and she
23 seemed okay with it.
24 Q. Do you have any idea what her job was once
25 she began working?
17
1 A. Part-time clerical.
2 Q. Clerical, what were her responsibilities,
3 if you know?
4 A. Answer the phone, talk to people that
5 walked in the door. If people go away, fill out a sheet
6 of paper, when they're leaving, coming back and direct
7 calls to the chief and I.
8 Q. What was -- who was her supervisor?
9 A. Technically the chief. The chief she
10 actually answered to, no different than anybody else that
11 works there.
12 Q. Do you supervise any individuals?
13 A. Yeah, I supervise basically all the
14 officers that are below me.
15 Q. You would be their supervisor?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the chief supervises you?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. That's a yes?
20 A. Yep.
21 Q. Uh-huhs don't come out.
22 So if the chief oversees everyone in the
23 department?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. He's the top of the pyramid, but he's not
18
1 necessarily who, everyone's direct supervisor, would you
2 agree with that?
3 A. No, I won't. In our Town he's everyone's
4 direct supervisor.
5 Q. Did you have any supervisory authority or
6 responsibility over Ms. Herrmann?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When did that begin?
9 A. Probably the time that she was hired, if
10 I'm able to instruct her to do things, assign tasks to
11 her, ask her to do something, not do something, that was
12 within the purview of my authority.
13 Q. What were the kind of things you instructed
14 her to do or not do?
15 A. Police type things, please proofread this,
16 can you get this, can do you that, can you file this.
17 Q. I'm trying to get a feel what did she do.
18 She would work on the computer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Word processor? Do you know what she did
21 on the computer?
22 A. She made a lot of lists.
23 Q. What kind of lists?
24 A. Lists of lists. I mean, lots of lists.
25 Q. Can you give me a for instance? Can you
19
1 remember one for me.
2 A. A list for real estate agents in the Town
3 listing all new residents that moved in.
4 Q. Is this something she was instructed to do
5 or doing on her own?
6 A. No, she was doing it on her own.
7 Q. Do you know why she was doing it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you tell her to do it?
10 A. I had no idea until she left.
11 Q. Let's talk what you know she was doing
12 while she was there.
13 A. Maintaining a residents' log. Maintaining
14 a list of all residents that comes and goes, as far as
15 houses being sold, that kind of stuff.
16 We have form letters that go out to
17 residents, usually your is tree dead, you've got to cut
18 it down. Your yard is overgrown, prune it up, that kind
19 of stuff. A lot of proofreading. I would say she
20 proofread all of my work and did a very good job.
21 Q. What kind of stuff was she proofreading?
22 A. Letters, reports, anything you want to
23 type, anything you don't want someone to see typos.
24 Q. Probable cause affidavits, did you ever do
25 that?
20
1 A. No. Maybe. We don't call them probable
2 cause affidavits.
3 Q. What do you call them?
4 A. Just complaint affidavits.
5 Q. Complaint affidavits. Did you or officers
6 under your command fill those out during the time that
7 she moved there?
8 A. I'm sure.
9 Q. Did you make a list of them?
10 A. If I typed up anything, a narrative that
11 was important that I wanted proofread, in all likelihood
12 I have it to her proofread.
13 Q. At some point in time do you recall her
14 becoming -- strike that.
15 When she was first hired, when she first
16 changed from a voluntary status, do you know if she was
17 part-time or full-time?
18 A. Part-time.
19 Q. At some point in time did she become a
20 full-time employee?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you know how that came about?
23 A. Well, I know that Ms. Herrmann had
24 frequently discussed her problems about getting health
25 insurance and things of that nature. She really needed
21
1 health insurance, and the chief worked very hard to get
2 her made full-time.
3 Q. Besides getting health insurance, did
4 anything else change within her job when she changed from
5 a part-time to a full-time status?
6 A. She worked more hours.
7 Q. Do you remember how much she was working,
8 how much she was working, anything like that?
9 A. No, honestly, it would vary a lot.
10 Sometimes, maybe 40 hours a week, which is a part-time
11 status. If the chief were gone or if I were gone or
12 someone was on vacation, in all likelihood we stay so
13 someone was there to answer the phone. So it varied
14 tremendously, part-time, I think theoretically, I think
15 25 hours a week thing became 40 hours.
16 Q. Did her job duties ever change from the
17 time period she became a full-time employee until the
18 time she left?
19 A. No, not that I recall.
20 Q. Did her work station ever change?
21 A. With regard to what?
22 Q. Do you understand what a work station is?
23 A. You mean her desk change?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Physically, like a different desk?
22
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. I think it's the same desk. I don't recall
3 us buying any new desks.
4 Q. Was it ever moved?
5 A. Probably when we redesigned the whole
6 Police Department.
7 Q. Do you know when?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you have an interior decorator for the
10 redesign?
11 A. The building itself?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I don't know who designed, redesigned it.
14 My office used to be back in the lunch room.
15 Q. Was it major construction work and things
16 done?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did you first -- you're aware that,
19 you know why you're here, Ms. Herrmann has brought suit
20 against the Town and the chief.
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Part of her allegations involve the display
23 of pornographic material in the workplace.
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. When did you first become aware that she
23
1 was alleging that she was subjected to display of
2 pornographic material in the workplace?
3 A. When she made the complaint, I believe, to
4 someone within the Town as far as she wanted to file a
5 lawsuit.
6 Q. Okay. Tell me how, who told you that? How
7 did you become aware of the information?
8 A. I'm not positive who told me. I would
9 guess the chief possibly told me.
10 Q. Do you recall the time frame?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was she still working for the Town?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. The chief, to the best of your
15 knowledge, can you tell me anything specific what the
16 chief would have told you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Do you recall any conversations that
19 you had at that time regarding Ms. Herrmann?
20 A. Well, I'm sure it was certainly discussed,
21 she filed a lawsuit.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Or intends to.
24 Q. So you were told she intended to file a
25 lawsuit?
24
1 A. That was my understanding, yes.
2 Q. What was -- was any investigation
3 internally within the Town, to your knowledge, take place
4 to determine the validity of her allegations that she was
5 subjected to pornographic material in the workplace?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Who conducted that investigation?
8 A. I'm not sure. It was spearheaded by
9 Mr. Dorsky, he conducted an investigation. I know I
10 participated in a similar exercise with an attorney at
11 Dana Richardson's office, and I believe the Town office
12 Kim Wright conducted some sort of investigation.
13 Q. Were you ever made aware of the results of
14 the investigation?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Was anyone ever disciplined?
17 A. Not to my knowledge.
18 Q. Is there an Internal Affairs part of your
19 department?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what is that? Was it an unit? I know
22 it's a small department, probably you or something. Who
23 is the Internal Affairs officer?
24 A. Generally as a rule, I conduct Internal
25 Affairs investigations but not always. Sometimes the
25
1 sergeant may or we pay send it out to another agency.
2 Q. Why is it sometimes sent out to another
3 agency?
4 A. If there is any sort of inference of
5 impropriety we send it out to another agency.
6 Q. For instance, Martin County Sheriff's?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Stuart?
9 A. I don't recall utilizing them.
10 Q. Who do you use at Martin County?
11 A. As far as I know, we haven't used anyone
12 else. If there are other agencies, I suspect we wanted
13 to call upon, we could.
14 Q. Was there ever a discussion regarding Ms.
15 Herman's allegations regarding whether an Internal
16 Affairs investigation took place?
17 A. I was not a party for any discussions
18 involving an investigation.
19 Q. I'm asking, were you a party to any
20 conversation wherein it was discussed there should be an
21 Internal Affairs investigation?
22 A. No one ever discussed anything regarding an
23 investigation, internal investigation or any type of
24 investigation, it was not.
25 Q. Before you told me you were part of an
26
1 investigation. I'm assuming as opposed to the
2 investigator, you were someone being questioned; is that
3 accurate?
4 A. Correct. At some point I was called upon
5 to give testimony, but it was not in a relatively short
6 order. I think it was like a year or so later.
7 Q. Okay. What I'm looking for is any
8 investigation that took place, and I'll limit it between
9 the time that you became aware Ms. Herrmann was making
10 this allegation and between the time of her last day of
11 work, she was still working there, did any investigation
12 take place?
13 A. Of what?
14 Q. Her allegations of display of pornographic
15 material in the workplace?
16 A. Not that I'm aware of.
17 Q. Tell me what you're aware of.
18 A. Well, I did already tell you, though. I
19 was told that an investigation was conducted, Joe Dorsky,
20 he's a Town manager, he did some sort of investigation
21 was conducted by David Torey and David Richardson's
22 office had some information. I was asked similar type of
23 testimony, if that occurred.
24 Q. You told me that was a year later?
25 A. Yes.
27
1 Q. You said you were told about an
2 investigation conducted by Mr. Dorsky who told you that?
3 A. I don't even know.
4 Q. Were you questioned in that investigation?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was anyone that you know questioned in that
7 investigation?
8 A. No one mentioned -- well, actually, I don't
9 know the answer to that. I believe the chief was spoken
10 to but I can't swear to it. I wasn't a part of that
11 investigation.
12 Q. You were the second ranking member of the
13 Police Department at that time, correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. And the first ranking member is the person
16 that these allegations were directed to?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. You have no idea who was spoken to in that
19 investigation?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. I'm making sure I've got it right. The
22 same questions -- any investigation investigated by Mr.
23 Wright?
24 A. I've never spoken to Mr. Wright about it.
25 Q. Do you know if you spoke to anyone?
28
1 A. You'd have to speak to Tim Wright.
2 Q. Any source, Tim Wright just left. My
3 question is: Did you speak to anyone regarding that
4 investigation?
5 A. No. I do know that the chief has spoken
6 with Tim Wright.
7 Q. I'm sure.
8 A. Well, you asked if anyone. We talked to
9 Tim Wright. I know the chief talked to Mr. Wright.
10 Q. Do you know if Mr. Wright or Mr. Dorsky
11 spoke with any female employee of the Town regarding
12 these allegations?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Have you ever spoken -- have you ever seen
15 material of a sexual nature displayed on Chief McCarty's
16 computer?
17 A. I have.
18 Q. Could you tell me the first time that you
19 saw such a display and can you describe it for me.
20 A. I can't.
21 Q. When, what rank would you have been the
24 Q. Would it have been more than a month ago?
25 A. Oh, absolutely. It could have been four or
29
1 five years ago. I don't know what my rank was at the
2 time. I could have been an officer. I could have been a
3 sergeant, could have been either.
4 Q. Can you tell me what you saw?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You don't remember?
7 A. I mean, it was a long time ago.
8 Q. But you remember that you saw something?
9 A. I'm saying I recall that I've seen
10 somethings over time. Do I recall specifically seeing
11 something six years ago, no.
12 Q. I'm not asking for a time frame now.
13 A. You asked, have you ever seen anything, the
14 answer is yes. I do not specifically recall what I saw
15 the first time, no.
16 Q. Why don't you tell me the earliest display
17 you can recall the specifics of.
18 A. I've got to tell you, you have to refresh
19 my memory. You throw something out at me, I can tell you
20 whether or not I saw them. I've seen lots of jokes, I've
21 seen cartoons. If you told me and it was so remarkable
22 that I've committed it to memory. There is nothing in
23 particular that jumps out at me. If you point something
24 out, I'll be glad to talk about it.
25 Q. How many such cartoons or jokes or displays
30
1 have you seen over the years?
2 A. I have no idea.
3 Q. More than five?
4 A. Definitely.
5 Q. More than 10?
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. More than 20?
8 A. Maybe.
9 Q. More than a thousand?
10 A. No, I don't think.
11 Q. More than a hundred?
12 A. I have no idea. Maybe.
13 Q. More than 50?
14 A. Maybe more than -- somewhere maybe between
15 50.
16 Q. Maybe a hundred, maybe more than than a
17 hundred, right?
18 A. No. If I think how many workdays a year
19 over the number of years. If I saw something once every
20 week or two, maybe, maybe.
21 Q. Now, and of that -- I want to make sure
22 it's clear, that I cannot make a distinction how many
23 jokes or cartoons have you seen, how many of them may
24 have been explicit, how many of them intended to be
25 funny, how many displayed some portion of a nude female
31
1 body?
2 A. A couple of times. It's not like it's a
3 daily event.
4 Q. A couple of times over the years?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You've seen it on his computer a couple,
7 I'm going to say two?
8 A. I would say under a dozen.
9 Q. Okay. Under a dozen times you've seen
10 naked female displays on his computer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did you do when you saw those things?
13 A. Leave. No, it's not funny. Yes, it's
14 funny.
15 Q. Can you tell me the circumstances of any of
16 those times how was it that you saw those things? Did
17 you break through the door and catch him on the computer?
18 A. You got to see this, it's funny.
19 Q. Is that you talking to the chief?
20 A. That would be the chief saying that to me.
21 Q. Where would you be typically when he's
22 saying that to you?
23 A. Usually in my office working.
24 Q. Your office, usually in your office
25 working?
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We're talking about a dozen or so times?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Is that a yes? Uh-huhs are not going to
5 come out.
6 You'd be in your office doing police work
7 and the chief would be at his desk and he would call you
8 in because he thought something was funny to look at?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And sometimes you'd go, uh-huh, that's
11 funny and sometimes you wouldn't?
12 A. He'd say, isn't it funny, and I would say,
13 no, and I'd leave.
14 Q. Did you ever say, chief, why are you
15 showing me naked pictures on your computer?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you ever say chief --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- you're the police chief, what are you
20 doing?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. Why not?
23 A. I just never felt the need to. He thought
24 it was funny. I might think it's funny, and sometimes I
25 think it's not funny. If I didn't think it was, I would
33
1 walk out and go back to work.
2 Q. Every time he called you, you got up?
3 A. If I wasn't too busy. Sometimes, no, I'll
4 be there in a minute when I'm done or I'm busy right now.
5 Q. Did you find that an appropriate use of
6 your police time?
7 A. No, not particularly.
8 Q. Did you tell the chief that it was
9 inappropriate for him be viewing these materials on
10 taxpayers' -- on the taxpayers' dime?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you tell him it was inappropriate for
13 him to call you in on taxpayers' time to view this
14 material?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you really think that was appropriate in
17 the workplace?
18 MR. MCDUFF: Object to the form. You can
19 answer.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think it's
21 particularly appropriate.
22 BY MR. ISAACS:
23 Q. Did you ever go and speak to someone else,
24 not in a complaint form, but just someone should talk to
25 the chief about cutting this out?
34
1 A. No.
2 Q. Why?
3 A. I felt if that's what he wanted to do with
4 his time, that's his decision.
5 Q. It wasn't his time, wasn't it, it was the
6 taxpayers'?
7 A. It's his time in the workplace. What he's
8 doing in the workplace, that's his business.
9 Q. Now, that is what a dozen so times we
10 talked about female nudes. There were other times where
11 there were cartoons or jokes or whatever of a sexual
12 nature too, correct?
13 A. There were some of a sexual nature. They
14 were not all of a sexual nature.
15 Q. How often do you think you were called in
16 -- let me ask you. Would it have worked the same way,
17 cartoons and jokes, he's call you, this is funny?
18 A. Or at the same time there is more than one
19 joke, more than one picture.
20 Q. I'm just interested in the ones that are of
21 a sexual nature. Can you ballpark for me the amount
22 times that you recall seeing a joke or the cartoon of a
23 sexual nature?
24 A. Accurately, no, I can't.
25 Q. Can you estimate. Let's ballpark it, not
35
1 that accurate. More than a hundred?
2 A. I wouldn't think so.
3 Q. More than 50?
4 A. It's really hard to guess. It's purely a
5 guess.
6 Q. Okay. The dozen or so times regarding the
7 depiction of female nudity, was there ever anyone else
8 present there besides you and the chief?
9 A. Ms. Herrmann was present.
10 Q. How many occasions?
11 A. Frequently.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. Frequently. Whether she was there every
14 time I can't tell you but frequently.
15 Q. I've never been in the department. So I
16 have no -- you'll have to help me layout. Where was the
17 chief's office compared to where you sat?
18 A. When he was first promoted, when I was
19 still working out of the kitchen, lunch area, it would
20 have been down the hall, which would be probably 25 feet
21 down the hall, and then the current layout, there is the
22 chief's office, the clerk's area, which faces the front
23 lobby and my office is on the other side.
24 Q. During the time that Ms. Herrmann worked
25 there, do you know what the layout, current layout is?
36
1 A. It was both.
2 Q. Let's use the current layout. How far do
3 you sit from where he sits?
4 A. Still about 25 feet.
5 Q. Would he call you or get you on the
6 intercom or instant message you?
7 A. You don't have to scream. You can just
8 talk in our office and hear each other's space. It's not
9 that bad.
10 Q. Where was Deni's desk compared to your desk
11 and his desk?
12 A. In between the two, equal distance.
13 Q. You could hear him?
14 A. Yep.
15 Q. Would he call you both at the same time?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. You need to see this, this is funny. Do
18 you recall any specifics of the times that Deni was
19 there, is your memory any better about the specifics of
20 those displays?
21 A. I would say most of the time I was there,
22 she was probably there. There is no reason to think why
23 not.
24 Q. How about anybody else?
25 A. If there was an officer in the office, it's
37
1 possible one of them could have been there.
2 Q. But you don't know one way or the other?
3 A. They're not supposed to be hanging out in
4 the office. So --
5 Q. None of you are supposed to be in the
6 office looking at that stuff?
7 A. No. Officers that are out in patrol are
8 normally -- they're not just hanging out in the office.
9 There are other people milling about.
10 Q. Do you recall -- I know you already told me
11 you don't recall the specifics of the display -- do you
12 recall, I'm not being sarcastic, do you recall any
13 specifics, any specific comments that Ms. Herrmann made
14 during any of these displays?
15 A. I know I recall her asking the chief to
16 send some of them to her home, her husband will think
17 that is funny. I think that is funny, send that to me.
18 Q. Which one of those?
19 A. I don't remember which ones.
20 Q. Do you remember if she said, my husband
21 will think it's funny or I think it's funny, send it to
22 me or send it to my husband, which one did she say?
23 A. Either/or both. There is no need to send
24 it to me, I've seen it once, it's enough.
25 Q. Do you recall ever seeing a display of a,
38
1 either a video or a photograph of a male donkey having
2 sex with a human female in a harness?
3 A. That I do not.
4 Q. Do you recall seeing any display of
5 bestiality?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you recall seeing any displays of,
8 explicit displays of anal sex?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, what you were looking at, do you know
|