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1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 05-14197 CIV MOORE/LYNCH
3
DENISE HERRMANN,
4
Plaintiff,
5
-vs-
6
TOWN OF SEWALLS POINT AND LARRY
7 MCCARTY,
8 Defendants.
____________________________________/
9
10 DEPOSITION OF LARRY MCCARTY
11
12 FRIDAY, MAY 5TH, 2006
1:35 p.m. - 3:42 p.m.
13
14
900 EAST OCEAN BOULEVARD
15 STUART, FLORIDA
16
17
18
Reported By:
19 Aileen Woodward, Court Reporter
Notary Public, State of Florida
20 Consor & Associates Reporting and Transcription
West Palm Beach Office
21 Phone - 561.835.9738
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:
GARY A. ISAACS, ESQUIRE
3 GARY A. ISACCS, P.A.
250 AUSTRALIAN AVENUE SOUTH
4 SUITE 1401
WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA 33401
5
On behalf of the Defendant:
6 RICHARD MCDUFF, ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, ANSELMO
7 2455 EAST SUNRISE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1000
8 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33304
9 On behalf of the Defendant:
STEPHANIE DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE
10 LEWIS, STROUD & DEUTSCH, P.L.
1900 GLADES ROAD
11 SUITE 251
BOCA RATON, FLORIDA 33431
12
13 ALSO PRESENT
DENISE HERRMANN, PLAINTIFF
14
- - -
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 Deposition taken before Aileen Woodward,
2 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and
3 for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause.
4 - - -
5 Thereupon,
6 LARRY MCCARTY,
7 having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined
8 and testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. ISAACS:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Chief. Could you state
12 your name please.
13 A. Larry McCarty.
14 Q. Chief McCarty, I'm assuming that you've
15 been deposed on prior occasions?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. I'll dispense with all of the
18 instructions then. Let me just say a couple. If I ask
19 you anything that you don't understand the question, tell
20 me to clarify it and I'll be happy to do so. If you need
21 to take a break at any time, feel free do so. My only
22 request would be if there is question pending that I get
23 an answer before we take a break.
24 Additionally, try to answer audibly, uh-huh
25 uh-uh, I won't know whether you're saying yes or no six
4
1 month from now. Do you have any questions?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Where are you employed, sir?
4 A. Town of Sewalls Point.
5 Q. What capacity?
6 A. Chief of police.
7 Q. How long have you been so employed?
8 A. As chief of police or a police officer?
9 Q. Chief of police, sir.
10 A. Six years.
11 Q. 2000?
12 A. I think December. I took over December
13 '99, I believe.
14 Q. Okay. How long have you been with the Town
15 in total?
16 A. 22 years.
17 Q. Also as a police officer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Sworn officer the entire time?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. If we back up 22 years, doing the
22 math right, around 1984?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you begin as an officer?
25 A. Yes.
5
1 Q. At some point in time did you receive a
2 promotion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When?
5 A. I have no idea.
6 Q. Okay. What rank would you have been
7 promoted to?
8 A. Sergeant.
9 Q. Do you have an approximate idea how long
10 you were a sergeant for?
11 A. I'll guess, four years, five years.
12 Q. Okay. Can you give me a decade that would
13 have been? Are we talking about the '90s?
14 A. Maybe the '90s. I don't know. I don't
15 know.
16 Q. Okay. When did you cease being a sergeant?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Okay. Were you promoted to sergeant?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. To lieutenant?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Any idea when that occurred?
23 A. No.
24 Q. How long were you a lieutenant?
25 A. Maybe -- I don't know. I'm guessing, five,
6
1 six years. A guess. Guessing.
2 Q. Okay. That's fine.
3 Prior to 1984, were you employed as a
4 police officer anywhere else?
5 A. Yes, part-time City of Stuart two years.
6 Q. Part-time, meaning approximately how many
7 hours a week?
8 A. It varied as I recall. It's quite a few
9 years ago, but it varied. Some weeks 12, some weeks 40.
10 Q. Prior to being a part-time police officer
11 with the City of Stuart, how were you employed?
12 A. What type of job did I do, is that what
13 you're asking?
14 Q. Yeah. I'm going to ask you next where did
15 you do it.
16 A. SPS Home Center in Stuart. I was a manager
17 of the paint department.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Retail paint.
20 Q. Approximately how long were you in that?
21 A. Two years.
22 Q. Let me work back. Let me start back with
23 the work, and we'll meet in the middle then. What was
24 the highest education that you achieved?
25 A. To date?
7
1 Q. Yeah.
2 A. Bachelor's.
3 Q. When did you finish high school?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Did you obtain a GED?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When?
8 A. Somewhere around 1957, in the Marines.
9 Q. You were in the service for how long?
10 A. Three years.
11 Q. What is the first law enforcement training
12 that you received?
13 A. I worked -- I worked as an auxiliary
14 officer in Suffolk County in Long Island at some point,
15 maybe 1979, 1980, I don't recall.
16 Q. And that was not that long before you, I
17 assume, moved to Florida?
18 A. That was '79. I believe I came here in
19 '80. I started with the Stuart PD, I think, in -- as a
20 reserve in '81, maybe, and then I went through the
21 reserve academy, I think, in '82 and -- no, in '82. And
22 then I went to the full-time academy, I believe, in the
23 end of '83.
24 Q. Okay. The academy in Martin County?
25 A. No.
8
1 Q. Indian River?
2 A. St. Lucie County. It was -- IRCC Academy.
3 Q. Prior to coming down to South Florida --
4 strike that.
5 Did you receive any education or training
6 in law enforcement other than you were an auxiliary cop
7 up in Long Island?
8 A. No, not that I recall.
9 Q. Share with me -- you have a bachelor's now.
10 Tell me about the education that you received? Where did
11 you matriculate?
12 A. I went part-time nights through Barry
13 University.
14 Q. Okay. Approximately what years?
15 A. I think I graduated in -- I don't remember
16 -- maybe 2001. I don't recall.
17 Q. You were already chief when that happened
18 or maybe not?
19 A. I think so, but I don't recall.
20 Q. What was your degree in?
21 A. It's an odd degree. I don't remember what
22 it is. It's not a standard. It's not a standard degree.
23 I don't remember, some odd named degree. I can't
24 remember.
25 Q. If it comes to you.
9
1 A. I'll probably remember. I really don't
2 recall.
3 Q. Ms. Herrmann worked as a police clerk for
4 the Town of Sewells Point for some period of time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if I say the Town, please understand I
7 mean the Town of Sewells Point so there is no
8 misunderstanding. Okay?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'll save a few words here and there.
11 When did she begin with the Town, do you
12 recall?
13 A. It must have been around '98.
14 Q. Was she a volunteer first?
15 A. Yes, she volunteered as a -- just to
16 assist, yes.
17 Q. And at some point in time did she actually
18 become an employee of the Town?
19 A. I don't recall if she asked or we asked
20 her. I don't recall.
21 Q. But she became an employee of the Town?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was that, do you recall, was that part-time
24 initially?
25 A. Yes.
10
1 Q. When she became a part-time employee, were
2 her functions similar to those that she had been doing as
3 a volunteer?
4 A. Yes, I believe so. I think so.
5 Q. Okay. And eventually she becomes a
6 full-time employee, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. She got health insurance benefits at that
9 point, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did her job duties or functions change with
12 the difference from part-time to full-time or was she
13 there a little longer?
14 A. I don't believe so. They stayed the same.
15 Q. Could you tell me then, describe for me
16 what her job duties were.
17 A. Good question. I don't know what she did
18 there.
19 Q. Enjoy, there may not be a lot of those.
20 A. I understand. She -- she dealt with the
21 res log, as I recall, our computer. She -- I don't
22 recall what exactly, what she did.
23 Q. Okay. The res log?
24 A. That's a residents log that keeps me
25 current on people who move in and out of Town, et cetera.
11
1 Q. What are your duties as chief of police?
2 A. I can give you the, I guess, the company
3 version, keep law and order in the Town and take care of
4 the residents and keep them. But basically mine is to
5 maintain the daily operations of the police department
6 with the officers and answer questions with -- with
7 residents that come in, field phone calls from residents
8 and people who have had problems with whatever and
9 generally do basic paperwork.
10 Q. How many sworn officers do you oversee
11 currently?
12 A. Nine.
13 Q. Is that including yourself?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Has that number increased over the years?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you first became chief, what would
18 that number have been, ballpark?
19 A. Seven. A guess.
20 Q. Are there -- are there employees -- well,
21 strike that.
22 Do you have supervisory authority -- do you
23 have supervisory responsibility over every sworn officer
24 in your department; is that fair?
25 A. Yes.
12
1 Q. Are there nonsworn officers, employees that
2 you have supervisory authority over?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who?
5 A. The current secretary, part-time secretary,
6 and now the maintenance people.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Two people in maintenance.
9 Q. Is the secretary, is that -- what does the
10 secretary do?
11 A. Today she currently handles the tickets
12 and, Ms. Herrmann, I think, did tickets, too, but the
13 current secretary handles the tickets that come in, keeps
14 the records, keeps them in order. She also does the res
15 log and code enforcement ordinance. She sends out the
16 ordinances on a day-to-day basis. I'm not sure of the
17 other details.
18 Q. How does the current -- what is her name,
19 the current secretary?
20 A. Anne Marie Sullivan.
21 Q. How does Ms. Sullivan's job duties
22 currently differ, if at all, from what Ms. Herrmann did
23 while she was there?
24 A. I don't know. There may be basic
25 fundamental differences. I don't know exactly.
13
1 Q. When Ms. Herrmann worked for the Town, did
2 you have supervisory authority over her?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You're a defendant in this lawsuit,
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You're aware of Ms. Herrmann's allegations,
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever display material of a sexual
11 nature on your computer in the workplace?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you display it specifically to
14 Ms. Herrmann?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you ever denied doing so?
17 A. Put it differently.
18 Q. Have you ever told anyone that you never
19 had sexually related material on your computer in the
20 workplace?
21 A. Well, that's not what I said. Pornography
22 is what I said.
23 Q. Who did you say that to?
24 A. Well, I don't know. You said that. I
25 don't know who I said it to. I don't recall saying --
14
1 what I said, there was no pornography. I don't know
2 about sexually related.
3 Q. Who did you say there was no pornography
4 to?
5 A. I don't know. I don't recall who I spoke
6 to. This was over a period of time.
7 Q. Would you ever have told a commissioner
8 there was no pornography?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you believe here that there was no
11 pornography on your computer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Define pornography for me.
14 A. How do you define pornography? I'm not
15 being facetious. Most of what we're talking about here
16 are cartoons, jokes. I don't know how else to define it.
17 Q. Let me ask you: You know Joan Barrow?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. She's the Town clerk, right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. She testified yesterday, I'm going to
22 paraphrase, that she viewed video on your computer where
23 in a donkey or mule had intercourse with a man. My only
24 question would be: Would that be pornography to you?
25 A. Yes.
15
1 Q. Okay. Do you recall Ms. Barrow viewing
2 such a video on your computer?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall having such a video on your
5 computer?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember a lady named Darlene Jones?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I think she went by the name of Dee.
10 A. I know the name, but I don't remember her.
11 She worked there for a couple of months.
12 Q. I think she might have worked for the
13 Building Department.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. She testified, again I'll paraphrase, that
16 she saw a photograph of --
17 A. A photograph? A photograph?
18 Q. -- on a computer as opposed to a video, a
19 picture of a women in a harness essentially having
20 intercourse with a donkey?
21 A. That's a lie.
22 Q. My question is: Would you agree such
23 things would be pornography, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you recall seeing such a picture on
16
1 display at the Town?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have, do you know of any reason why
4 Ms. Jones would lie about such a thing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you know of a reason why Ms. Barrow
7 would lie about such a thing?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you tell me about that, please.
10 MS. DEUTSCH: Go ahead.
11 THE WITNESS: Ms. Barrow and I have a long
12 relationship going back 22 years. It actually
13 " redacted - hearsay"
14 ' redacted hearsay "
15 " " ",
16 "redacted - hearsay"
17 BY MR. ISAACS:
18 Q. "redacted - hearsy"
19 A. Yes. He was terminated after she gave him
20 up and told the mayor at that time and vice mayor what he
21 was doing in the cop car. They caught him and terminated
22 him.
23 She later -- I have a tape. I have the
24 tape from the investigation that was bought to me when I
25 was, I think, a sergeant, that Ms. Barrow, I had asked
17
1 the current building official at that time Dale Brown and
2 the maintenance man, Jose Torres, to follow the chief of
3 police around when he left Town, follow him around, and
4 when I asked them on tape did anybody ask you to follow
5 them around, follow the chief around, they said, yes,
6 Joan Barrow.
7 And I asked, did anybody ask you to go into
8 the police department and look around in there and report
9 back to them. They said, yes, Joan Barrow.
10 I reported that to the mayor at that time.
11 I still have this tape, and it's part of evidence.
12 So the mayor at that time, he declined to
13 do anything with it. He was afraid to.
14 Q. Who was the mayor?
15 A. At that time, I think he's deceased now. I
16 can't remember his name. I believe he's deceased.
17 Q. What time frame are we talking about?
18 A. I'm going back 10 years ago.
19 "redacted - hearsay"
20 " redacted - hearsay"
21 Q. " redacted - hearsay "
22
23 A. " redacted - hearsay "
24 Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
25 A. This one now became the, when I went to the
18
1 mayor, I had told the mayor about the tapes of Joan
2 Barrow following --
3 Q. Who?
4 A. Pardon?
5 Q. Who was she following?
6 A. Following the chief of police.
7 Q. The same chief?
8 A. No, the second chief. A second chief
9 following him around.
10 Q. " redacted - hearsay "
11 A. " redacted - hearsay "
12 " redacted - hearsay"
13 " redacted - hearsay"
14 " redacted - hearsay"
15 " redacted - hearsay"
16 " redacted - hearsay"
17 " redacted - hearsay"
18 " redacted - hearsay"
19 " redacted - hearsay"
20 " redacted - hearsay"
21 " redacted - hearsay"
22 " redacted - hearsay"
23 time, something came up and he reported this to the chief
24 at this time right after the incident of the following
25 " redacted - hearsay"
19
1 Lines 1 thru 5 "redacted - hearsay ".
6 press charges.
7 We later had a third Chief Bill Crusher,
8 she came in, she would refer to him as lieutenant do
9 nothing, and she would say something about him. He quit.
10 He resigned. That was three of them that went down the
11 road.
12 I had an incident with Joan Barrow two
13 years ago maybe, and the Town manager at that time was
14 Jim McMann, and I said to Jim McMann, I want to have a
15 meeting with Joan Barrow because of all the things she's
16 saying and the things she's saying about me, I forget
17 what they were. He said okay.
18 I met with Joan Barrow in the conference
19 room. At that time another, that I just reported here, I
20 lay a piece of paper in front of her, Joan, I've had
21 enough of what you're doing with me, it stops or I'm
22 going to request a meeting with the full commission. I'm
23 going to report everything that is happening, everything
24 to them. There is no need for you to do that, turn the
25 paper over. We don't need to do that. You're absolutely
20
1 right. If you leave me alone, we won't be doing that
2 anymore. That's how they ended.
3 I have not heard anymore from Joan Barrow
4 until just recently until now.
5 Q. That last time with McMann?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Obviously that was during the time period
8 that McMann was Town manager, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was she doing at that point in time
11 that precipitated that conference?
12 A. She was making some comments, I don't
13 recall what they were. This was something, I don't
14 remember. May if I asked Gene Simon and Laura O'Brien
15 were involved with something at that time, and there was
16 something that happened at that time that I felt needed
17 to be stopped, and that's when I confronted Joan Barrow.
18 Q. Did that have anything to do with Deni
19 Herrmann in any way?
20 A. I don't recall, but I don't think so. I
21 think it was unrelated.
22 Q. Let's talk about the tape you have.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You don't have the tape of Joan Barrow,
25 someone else speaking with Joan Barrow?
21
1 A. When I did the interview, no.
2 Q. You did the interview as a sergeant?
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. Were these officers that you were
5 interviewing?
6 A. No one, maintenance man, one building
7 official.
8 Q. Was it a police investigation?
9 A. They came to me. Well, the investigation
10 where the Town clerk would ask the maintenance man to
11 follow the chief of police around and report back to her,
12 that's sort of a criminal investigation.
13 Q. It was sort of and there is a criminal --
14 A. We didn't make a criminal -- I waited to
15 see what the mayor wanted to do. I did the interview,
16 turned it over to the chief of police when he was back on
17 vacation. He was pleased, and I let him have that tape.
18 Q. What did you do with the tape?
19 A. I still have it in the evidence room.
20 Q. In the evidence room?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you keep all your tapes from 10 years
23 ago in the evidence room?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why keep this one?
22
1 A. That one was interesting, I kept it.
2 Q. You made it clear to Joan --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- if she didn't behave herself, you were
5 going to go use that tape against her?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Have we covered everything -- my original
8 question was: Any reason why Joan would lie, that's the
9 answer you gave me. Have you completed that answer?
10 A. For the moment.
11 Q. I don't want to cut you off.
12 A. For the moment.
13 Q. You ever send Scott Donlon a video?
14 A. From my house.
15 Q. How did you know what my question was going
16 to be. Okay. The video was a woman stomping a guy's
17 testicles?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Why did you E-mail it to Scott Donlon?
20 A. If you know cops, they have a perverted
21 sense of humor, I thought it was funny. I got a copy,
22 sent it around. At that time Scott and I were friends.
23 We had -- I made him sergeant. I think he was a sergeant
24 then. I paid him sergeant. I thought we had a
25 friendship and I sent it to him. I realized after that
23
1 that was a mistake on my part.
2 Q. Have you ever sent E-mails like that from
3 your, I guess, your your Town E-mail?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Have you received E-mails of a sexual
6 nature to your Town E-mail?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the E-mail. I
9 assume you have one E-mail. Why don't tell me how many
10 E-mail accounts do you have access to?
11 A. One.
12 Q. Only one right now?
13 A. Yes. Right now or did I have more before?
14 Q. My next question is going to be --
15 A. One as far as I know. I think we only have
16 one E-mail, that's all I'm aware of.
17 Q. I want to backup. Before you said you sent
18 it from your home?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Let's stick with the Donlon video?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You're in your home computer, you saw
23 something, cop sense of humor, you think Scott will
24 appreciate it?
25 A. Yes.
24
1 Q. If I wanted to send something to that
2 E-mail --
3 A. To my home address?
4 Q. -- which would be what?
5 A. Larry McCarty CC1, I think, at Bell South.
6 It may have been MSN at that time.
7 Q. Okay. Is there another thing that says
8 something like at Sewalls Point?
9 A. It would be chief at Martin County, blah,
10 blah, blah.
11 Q. You don't know your E-mail if I ask you for
12 your E-mail?
13 A. I would have go look at it. Chief Martin
14 FF dot U.S. dot Florida, whatever.
15 Q. Can you access your home E-mail from the
16 office?
17 A. I can.
18 Q. I know you can.
19 A. Do I, I have. I don't know how to answer.
20 You ask do I? I have.
21 Q. Okay. Have you accessed that E-mail from
22 your office to view material of a sexual nature?
23 A. Did I know? Did I go there to find things
24 of a sexual nature, no.
25 Q. Have you accessed your home E-mail account
25
1 from your office and viewed materials of a sexual nature?
2 A. People have sent me E-mail. Yes.
3 Q. You accessed your office E-mail from your
4 home?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you even know how to do it?
7 A. No. You go through the Sheriff's Office as
8 the server.
9 Q. As far as you know, you have to be sitting
10 at your desk to access it? Let me finish the question.
11 You need to slow down. I know you know what the question
12 is.
13 As far as you know, you have to be sitting
14 at your desk to access your office E-mail?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And people send you material, including
17 naked and partially naked women to that E-mail address,
18 correct?
19 A. Not anymore.
20 MS. DEUTSCH: Which one?
21 BY MR. ISAACS:
22 Q. The office one.
23 A. Not anymore.
24 Q. When did that start?
25 A. Probably the time Ms. Herrmann made the
26
1 complaint.
2 Q. If someone sent -- how did you stop that?
3 I guess you can't control the guy on the other end of the
4 send bottom?
5 A. Friends don't send me anything to the
6 office.
7 Q. Have you done that?
8 A. Yes. Sure.
9 Q. How about Don Weiner?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How about --
12 A. Yes, Dee Gomo.
13 Q. -- Dee Gomo told them around the time?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Around the time all this went up with Ms.
16 Herrmann in 2004, you said, guys, don't send me anything
17 anymore?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I've got enough trouble, words to that
20 effect?
21 MS. DEUTSCH: Object to the form.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 BY MR. ISAACS:
24 Q. All right. Have you told them not to send
25 it to your home as well as your office?
27
1 A. No.
2 Q. You said, don't send it to my office, I
3 don't need that stuff around the office anymore?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I asked you about a couple of specific
6 things before, the donkey or whatever. What kind of
7 things -- let me strike that.
8 To your knowledge, did Ms. Herrmann ever
9 view materials of a sexual nature on your computer?
10 MS. DEUTSCH: Object to the form.
11 THE WITNESS: Pardon?
12 MS. DEUTSCH: I just objected to the form.
13 MR. ISAACS: Sexual nature, that's what you
14 don't like?
15 MS. DEUTSCH: Yes.
16 BY MR. ISAACS:
17 Q. When I use the term, sexual nature, what I
18 mean is things that deal with sex, nudity, partial
19 nudity, you understand the term, not necessarily
20 pornographic, not necessarily full-blown nudity, but my
21 definition will stand.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you understand my original question?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is the answer?
28
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell me what type of things she
3 viewed to your knowledge?
4 A. I don't know, any joke, E-mail. The one
5 that was brought up by E-mail, women's breast contest,
6 which are real, which were fake. I do remember that,
7 yes.
8 Q. Okay. Mr. Donlon testified, Officer Donlon
9 testified and the term he used was rate a tit, does that
10 refresh your recollection at all?
11 A. No. It may be the same one that I just
12 said to you.
13 Q. Do you remember a display involving a
14 gymnast, female gymnast that was either nude or topless
15 doing a floor exercise?
16 A. Somebody asked me that question, vaguely I
17 do, yes.
18 Q. Now, how would these materials get to your
19 computer?
20 A. Somebody would send me an E-mail. I opened
21 it up and there it was.
22 Q. I asked you about a couple of individuals
23 before Mr. Weiner and Dee Gomo?
24 A. Dee Gomo.
25 Q. Were those fellows during Ms. Herrmann's
29
1 tenure, sending you these type of E-mails?
2 A. They sent, yes.
3 Q. Did other folks send you this or mostly
4 those two guys?
5 A. I believe primarily the one gentleman
6 Degomo.
7 Q. Mr. Weiner at some point in time had a
8 position with the Town, did he not?
9 A. He was the mayor, yes.
10 Q. Do you remember when that was?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Was it a time where he was a commissioner
13 but not the mayor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Did besides Ms. Herrmann, who else,
16 to your knowledge, ever viewed materials of a sexual
17 nature using the same definition as before on your
18 computer?
19 A. I cannot think of anyone.
20 Q. Would -- I can't pronounce her last name
21 -- Tina, Lieutenant Tina?
22 A. Ciechanowski.
23 Q. Would she have seen materials of a sexual
24 nature on your computer?
25 A. I can't answer. She may have seen the one
30
1 contest with the real or fake. I don't remember. The
2 rest of them, she would have received jokes or cartoons,
3 yes.
4 Q. Well, would you call in Ms. Herrmann, would
5 you see an E-mail that you found amusing or interesting
6 and call Ms. Herrmann in to view it with you?
7 A. I would like you to define call.
8 Q. Come over here and see this.
9 A. That possibly did happen. The others was
10 just, Deni, you want -- when the group was there and
11 everybody participated, it was a group participation.
12 I'm sort of hesitant just --
13 Q. Okay. Well, that's a fair answer. To your
14 knowledge, you didn't just call her in?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Would you have ever called Tina in
17 in a similar fashion, Ciechanowski?
18 A. I don't know. I don't recall specifics on
19 this.
20 Q. You said it was a group affair. What did
21 you mean by that?
22 A. This would have been Gene Simon, myself,
23 Deni Herrmann that would be three. There was only three
24 of us, I think.
25 Q. Would you likewise call Gene in and look at
31
1 this?
2 A. Yes. Yes, I would.
3 Q. And Gene Simon?
4 A. Building official.
5 Q. Was he the head of the Building Department,
6 would that be fair?
7 A. Building official. I'm assuming that's his
8 title but I'm not sure.
9 Q. Okay. You said jokes and cartons and things
10 like that.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you descriibe generally what you're
13 talking about?
14 A. I have no idea. It's two or three years
15 ago. I don't remember. Jokes, I don't remember them.
16 Q. How many occasions do you think you brought
17 Ms. Herrmann in to view?
18 MR. SREW: Object to the form.
19 THE WITNESS: Brought?
20 BY MR. ISAACS:
21 Q. How many occasions do you think
22 Ms. Herrmann was present in your office where in she
23 viewed on your computer screen displays of partial or
24 full female nudity?
25 A. A couple of times. I don't know. I don't
32
1 know. A couple of times.
2 Q. Could it have been more than 10?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Same question with regard to Lieutenant --
5 A. No.
6 Q. Ciechanowski? Let me ask the question.
7 The same answer, a couple?
8 A. Yes. I don't think, maybe one. I don't --
9 the lieutenant is a little bit stiffer. She's not quite
10 as humorous. So I would sa her humor and mine are worlds
11 apart. So I probably didn't.
12 Q. Would you have called in Deni more in than
13 you called in the lieutenant?
14 A. Yes. If I called her in.
15 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't really mean -- Deni
16 would have viewed these things more often than the
17 lieutenant?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Ms. Barrow, I asked you about that one
20 incident she talked about. Let me make it broader. To
21 your knowledge, did she ever have occasion to view any
22 materials of a sexual nature on your computer?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was she ever in your office?
25 A. Very rarely.
33
1 Q. How often would you get E-mail like this in
2 your office?
3 A. I don't know, once or twice a week maybe.
4 This was only for a short period of time. By the way,
5 this didn't go on for years. This was only for a couple
6 of months.
7 Q. Really?
8 A. That's it.
9 Q. Why?
10 A. I have no idea why. Well, I don't know
11 why. I don't know why.
12 Q. Let me backup. What makes you say it was
13 only a couple of months?
14 MS. DEUTSCH: Object to the form.
15 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know.
16 BY MR. ISAACS:
17 Q. Let me inquire.
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