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         1                  UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

                           SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

         2               CASE NO. 05-14197 CIV MOORE/LYNCH

         3

             DENISE HERRMANN,

         4

                           Plaintiff,

         5

             -vs-

         6

             TOWN OF SEWALLS POINT AND LARRY

         7   MCCARTY,

         8                 Defendants.

             ____________________________________/

         9

        10                   DEPOSITION OF SCOTT DONLON

        11

        12                    THURSDAY, MAY 4TH, 2006

                               1:06 p.m. - 3:17 p.m.

        13

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                             900 EAST OCEAN BOULEVARD

        15                        STUART, FLORIDA

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             Reported By:

        19   Aileen Woodward, Court Reporter

             Notary Public, State of Florida

        20   Consor & Associates Reporting and Transcription

             West Palm Beach Office

        21   Phone - 561.835.9738

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         1   APPEARANCES:

         2       On behalf of the Plaintiff:

                 GARY A. ISAACS, ESQUIRE

         3       GARY A. ISACCS, P.A.

                 250 AUSTRALIAN AVENUE SOUTH

         4       SUITE 1401

                 WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA 33401

         5

                 On behalf of the Defendant:

         6       RICHARD MCDUFF, ESQUIRE

                 JOHNSON, ANSELMO

         7       2455 EAST SUNRISE BOULEVARD

                 SUITE 1000

         8       FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33304

         9       On behalf of the Defendant:

                 STEPHANIE DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE

        10       LEWIS, STROUD & DEUTSCH, P.L.

                 1900 GLADES ROAD

        11       SUITE 251

                 BOCA RATON, FLORIDA 33431

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        13   ALSO PRESENT

                 DENISE HERRMANN, PLAINTIFF

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         1                           I N D E X

         2   WITNESS:                                        PAGE:

             SCOTT DONLON

         3   DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ISAACS                  4

             CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. DEUTSCH                  54

         4   REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ISAACS                80

         5                            -  -  -

         6                        E X H I B I T S

         7                            -  -  -

         8                                                     Page

             Plaintiff's No. 1                                 14

         9   Plaintiff's No. 2                                 40

             Plaintiff's No. 3                                 42

        10   Defendant's No. 1                                 70

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         1                 Deposition taken before Aileen Woodward,

         2   Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and

         3   for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause.

         4                            -  -  -

         5   Thereupon,

         6                         SCOTT DONLON,

         7   having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined

         8   and testified as follows:

         9                       DIRECT EXAMINATION

        10   BY MR. ISAACS:

        11           Q.    State your name please, sir.

        12           A.    Scott Donlon.

        13           Q.    Mr. Donlon, how are you employed?

        14           A.    I'm sorry?

        15           Q.    How are you employed?

        16           A.    I'm employed by the Sewalls Point Police

        17   Department.

        18           Q.    Spell your last name for me.

        19           A.    D-o-n-l-o-n.

        20           Q.    I'm assuming you've had your deposition

        21   taken a lot of times, correct?

        22           A.    Yes, sir.

        23           Q.    I'm going to dispense with the ground

        24   rules.  If I do ask you anything that you don't

        25   understand, let me know and I'll do my best to clarify.

                                                                      5

         1           A.    Yes, sir.

         2           Q.    Also try to answer out loud as opposed to

         3   uh-huh or uh-uh, nodding of the head.  If you forget

         4   that, either myself or one of the other counsel hopefully

         5   will jump in and remind you.

         6           A.    I understand that.

         7           Q.    How long have you worked for the Town?

         8           A.    I'm going to make a request before I answer

         9   any questions.

        10           Q.    Yes, sir.

        11           A.    I would like to make a statement.

        12           Q.    Sure.

        13           A.    I just want to put on the record I'm very

        14   uncomfortable being here.  I'm have serious concerns

        15   about retaliation.  I'm concerned about my job in

        16   reference to this deposition.  And more than concerns of

        17   my job, I'm now concerned with my entire police career as

        18   it was just brought up to me last week, three days prior

        19   to my deposition and my receiving the deposition to be

        20   here, I was informed by Lieutenant Ciechanowski that my

        21   police certification is due to expire in June because I

        22   don't have the in-service training that I need and the

        23   only way that I can get my in-service is, she called

        24   around and asked other departments, nobody has anything

        25   available, and she's trying to get me into St. Lucie

                                                                      6

         1   County.  They have one on May 23 and 24, and even though

         2   it's full she's trying to get me into that.

         3                 So I just want it on record, I'm very

         4   concerned about talking about the people that are

         5   employing me.

         6                 Having said that, I've sworn an oath to

         7   uphold the law as a law enforcement officer.  I'll affirm

         8   here I'm going to testify truthfully and that my -- that

         9   is my intention.

        10           Q.    Okay.  How long have you worked for the

        11   Town of Sewalls Point Police Department?

        12           A.    I was hired August 1, 1987.

        13           Q.    Have you worked there probably the last

        14   nine years continuously?

        15           A.    Yes, sir.

        16           Q.    Now let me go back into, let me follow-up

        17   with some of the things you just said.

        18                 I represent Deni, Denise Herrmann.  You're

        19   aware of that?

        20           A.    Yes.

        21           Q.    Do you fear retaliation from Ms. Herrmann?

        22           A.    No.

        23           Q.    You mentioned certification and lieutenant

        24   -- I can't pronounce -- that's Cynthia, right?

        25           A.    Yes.

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         1           Q.    How do pronounce her last name?

         2           A.    Ciechanowski, C-i-e-c-h-a-n-o-w-s-k-i.

         3           Q.    Once you spell it, you better get it right.

         4           A.    Yes.

         5           Q.    In your mind are you making some connection

         6   regarding the, whatever comment she made to you dealing

         7   with your certification and this disposition?

         8           A.    I'm not making any accusation.

         9           Q.    I didn't say accusation or concerns in your

        10   mind?

        11           A.    I obviously do, I wouldn't have felt the

        12   need to make the statement.

        13           Q.    What is the connection that you fear?

        14           A.    I'm afraid of retaliation.  I'm afraid

        15   that, that any potential damaging information that I give

        16   will be held against me.

        17           Q.    Okay.  If you don't get in that St. Lucie

        18   class, what will the result be?

        19           A.    My first phone call would be to the FDLE.

        20           Q.    Aside from the retaliation side, how would

        21   that effect your certification, if it would?

        22           A.    My understanding, if I don't have my

        23   in-service training, I'm no longer a law enforcement

        24   officer in the State of Florida.

        25           Q.    Have you had to get in-service training

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         1   prior to this time?

         2           A.    Yes, sir.

         3           Q.    How does it normally come about that you

         4   get that?

         5           A.    It's in-service training, and it's provided

         6   by the department.  We had occasion -- we've been sent

         7   places to get the in-service.  Occasionally they have

         8   brought people in from other agencies to train us.  It's

         9   basically a requirement for all law enforcement officers.

        10   It's not something that I can go to IRCC and get a breath

        11   test or breath operator.

        12           Q.    Like continuing education type of thing?

        13           A.    It's not continuing education, as in

        14   certifications and different areas of specialization.

        15   It's mandatory requirement for you as a law enforcement

        16   officer.  It's in-service versus a required.  Like in our

        17   department, we're asked to be certified in breath test

        18   operator, traffic homicide certified, various

        19   specializations I should say.  It isn't part of that.

        20   It's not like I can go pickup the phone and go down to

        21   IRCC and do the class.  It has to be done through

        22   in-services.

        23           Q.    In the past it's something that the Town

        24   has offered internally?

        25           A.    Yes.  Let me backup.  I don't want to say,

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         1   it was at one time offered at IRCC and people could go

         2   there.  I believe my certification was in 2000.  I went

         3   there in 2000 for this required certification.  I was

         4   sent there by the Town.

         5                 I guess what I'm missing here with you, you

         6   don't understand is, I have no access to the FDLE site,

         7   that's where -- that's where all these things are kept

         8   record of.  I have no access to it.  So in a sense, I'm

         9   not aware of when it's coming up.

        10                 Usually, in-depth training officer in this

        11   case is usually Lieutenant Ciechanowski has access to the

        12   FDLE.  When she told me about this, she called me into

        13   the office, are you aware your ticket is about to expire,

        14   and I don't know what she was talking about.  I said,

        15   what ticket?  She said law enforcement certification.

        16   She said she went up there for something else and my name

        17   popped up there, I was due to be expired.  I'm not making

        18   any accusations against anybody.

        19           Q.    We appreciate you being here.

        20                 Do you know Ms. Herrmann?

        21           A.    Yes, I do.

        22           Q.    When did you first meet her, do you recall?

        23           A.    When she started to work there.

        24           Q.    Do you recall a time when she was a

        25   volunteer?

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         1           A.    Yes, she had volunteered, and she was there

         2   all the time, and then there was, to my understanding, a

         3   position became available for part-time and she became a

         4   paid employee part-time.

         5           Q.    Okay.  While she worked -- how often would

         6   you have the opportunity to interact with her while she

         7   was working at the Town?

         8           A.    I saw her, I believe, when she first

         9   started -- my schedule is so messed up -- I believe I was

        10   working midnights at the time, and I would see her in the

        11   morning, and I would come in there to do paperwork or

        12   whatever.

        13           Q.    Did you ever have any problems with her?

        14           A.    With Ms. Herrmann.

        15           Q.    Professionally?

        16           A.    None whatever.

        17           Q.    During the course of her employment, did

        18   she interact with you in a professional level, type up

        19   things for you or take messages for you or anything of

        20   that sort?

        21           A.    Well, actually she created a whole bunch of

        22   things and made it easier for the police officers.  An

        23   example is in the court, when we were due to go to court

        24   she would let us know when we were supposed to be to

        25   court.  Kind of cop-proof things, if I may say that, at

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         1   least in my opinion.  It was her actions and the way she

         2   set things up, made it real easy for us not to forget

         3   things.  She would remind us of things.  I thought she

         4   was an asset to the organization myself.

         5           Q.    Okay.  When you first came onboard who was

         6   the chief of police?

         7           A.    Chief Bill Cushner is the chief that hired

         8   me.

         9           Q.    And he stayed until when, if you know, as

        10   chief?

        11           A.    I'm not real good with the dates.  I'm

        12   going to say three years maybe.

        13           Q.    And who took over?

        14           A.    Chief Larry McCarty.

        15           Q.    Any idea how long it's been approximately

        16   that he's been the chief of police, more than five years?

        17           A.    I'm going to guess it's been five or six

        18   years.

        19           Q.    Okay.  My understanding on that time is

        20   that, he's the chief, there has been one lieutenant in

        21   that time period and that's Ms. --

        22           A.    Ciechanowski.

        23           Q.    And there is a sergeant below her, and the

        24   officers, is that the setup?

        25           A.    That's correct.

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         1           Q.    And the sergeant would -- the sergeant

         2   would be your superior officer?

         3           A.    Chain of command reports to the sergeant,

         4   who reports to the lieutenant, who reports to the chief.

         5           Q.    Who is your direct supervisor?

         6           A.    Today?

         7           Q.    Yes.

         8           A.    Today would be the sergeant.

         9           Q.    When there isn't a sergeant in place, would

        10   that answer have not been a sergeant?

        11           A.    No. If I'm reading the question right.

        12           Q.    Yeah.  You may be between sergeants.

        13           A.    If I'm on duty with the sergeant, the

        14   sergeant is my supervisor.

        15                 MR. MCDUFF:  I think that was a different

        16           question, different answer.  Is there an OIC,

        17           anybody act as OIC?  When the sergeant is not on

        18           the duty, is there someone that is actually in

        19           charge of the shift, officer in charge?  I don't

        20           know if that's what you're saying.  Is there also

        21           a shift commander when you are on duty?

        22                 THE WITNESS:  No, the sergeant -- we have

        23           three shifts, three eight-hour shifts.  We're a

        24           small department.  Obviously we don't have a

        25           supervisor on every shift.  Is that the question?

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         1                 MR. MCDUFF:  I think you're answering a

         2           different question than he was asking.  So I

         3           wanted to make sure.

         4                 MR. ISAACS:  I don't care about the

         5           question.

         6                 MR. MCDUFF:  It's irrelevant.

         7                 THE WITNESS:  I apologize.

         8   BY MR. ISAACS:

         9           Q.    It's your my fault, it's my fault.

        10                 I'm going to, during the time that that

        11   people in authority have been the commissioner -- chief,

        12   do you have any knowledge of his utilizing the Town's

        13   computer to gain access to the internet for purposes of

        14   viewing and downloading pornography?

        15           A.    Is the question, am I aware there was

        16   pornography on the computer?

        17           Q.    Sure.

        18           A.    Yes, it's pretty much general knowledge as

        19   far as I know.

        20           Q.    That computer, there is more than one

        21   computer for the Town hall?

        22           A.    Yes, sir.

        23           Q.    I'm assuming there is one in the chief's

        24   office?

        25           A.    Yes.

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         1           Q.    Is that the computer you're talking about?

         2           A.    Yes, sir.

         3           Q.    I'll hand you a document, this one, we'll

         4   make a copy.  You want to make a copy now?

         5                 (Break taken.)

         6                 (Plaintiff's No. 1, was marked for

         7           identification.)

         8   BY MR. ISAACS:

         9           Q.    Officer Donlon, I've handed you during the

        10   break a document which we have marked Plaintiff's Exhibit

        11   1.  Take a moment, if you would like to review it, read

        12   it, whatever, but my first question will be:  Have you

        13   ever seen this document before?

        14           A.    I haven't seen this actual document.  I'm

        15   aware of this document.

        16           Q.    Could you explain that answer for me.

        17           A.    At some point in time, I can't give you an

        18   exact date, the chief had called me into the office.  It

        19   was the only time, I believe it was Officer Rick Crow had

        20   been fired.  He told me Rick had the audacity to call the

        21   FDLE, accused him of having pornography on the computer.

        22           Q.    Him being who?

        23           A.    The chief.  And he told me a little bit

        24   about the letter.  I don't remember any of the specifics,

        25   and I'm reading -- the reason I'm hesitating for the

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         1   record, I'm trying to read this.

         2           Q.    Take your time?

         3                 MR. MCDUFF:  Take your time to read it.

         4   BY MR. ISAACS:

         5           Q.    We'll wait for you.  I apologize for the

         6   second page being messed up but it's from a fax machine.

         7           A.    Having a cursory review of what is

         8   contained in this, a lot of this I was not informed of by

         9   the chief.  It dealt mostly with the pornography and he

        10   told me that.

        11           Q.    He being the chief?

        12           A.    I'm sorry, he advised me that a FDLE agent

        13   had contacted him and asked him if there was any

        14   pornography on the computer, and he told him it wasn't,

        15   and that was the end of the investigation.

        16           Q.    To your knowledge, at that time was there

        17   pornography on his computer?

        18                 MR. MCDUFF:  Object to the form.

        19                 THE WITNESS:  Excuse me?

        20                 MR. MCDUFF:  I was making a legal objection

        21           to the form, because --

        22                 MR. ISAACS:  Go ahead.

        23                 MR. MCDUFF:  You can define pornography,

        24           what you mean then by pornography so the witness

        25           has some frame of it.

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         1                 MR. ISAACS:  Chief McCarty is the one that

         2           used the term, I don't know.

         3                 MR. MCDUFF:  The letter used the term.

         4   BY MR. ISAACS:

         5           Q.    Chief McCarty said to you the FDLE officer

         6   had asked him if there was pornography on his computer,

         7   and he answered to the FDLE officer, no, is that what you

         8   told me?

         9           A.    Correct.

        10                 MR. MCDUFF:  And you're next question was:

        11           Was there pornography on the computer.

        12   BY MR. ISAACS:

        13           Q.    I'll let the record stand.  We'll go back

        14   to it.

        15                 Was there pornography on the computer to

        16   your knowledge?

        17                 MR. MCDUFF:  Object to the form.

        18                 THE WITNESS:  What I considered

        19           pornography.  I saw pictures of naked women on it.

        20           I've seen other stuff on the computer, on the

        21           chief's computer that I deemed to be pornographic,

        22           inappropriate.

        23   BY MR. ISAACS:

        24           Q.    Let's limit the question, first limit your

        25   knowledge, what was on that computer to that time period

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         1   when the chief made that statement to you, okay.  And

         2   then I'll ask you about subsequent.  But up to that time,

         3   had you seen such things?

         4           A.    Yes.

         5           Q.    Did you say anything to the chief when he

         6   told you that?

         7           A.    No.

         8           Q.    Was it your perception the chief had lied

         9   to the FDLE?

        10                 MR. MCDUFF:  Object to the form.

        11                 THE COURT:  Object to the form.

        12                 THE WITNESS:  It was my perception that

        13           when he said there wasn't anything pornographic on

        14           the computer, I was sitting here thinking to

        15           myself how could he say that because I've seen it

        16           myself and basically it was common knowledge.

        17   BY MR. ISAACS:

        18           Q.    Okay.  Do you know whether any other Town

        19   officials became aware of this complaint other than

        20   Chief McCarty?

        21           A.    I don't recall.  I don't recall at that

        22   time the chief telling me that anybody else was involved

        23   in it.  I don't recall.

        24           Q.    Okay.  But my question wasn't limited to

        25   what the chief told you.  Did you ever find out from any

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         1   source that, either this letter, Exhibit 1 or the

         2   complaint of this sort involving pornography was made

         3   known to Town commissioners for instance?

         4           A.    At some point -- I'm sorry I thought you

         5   told me to limit it to this time frame.

         6           Q.    Prior to Deni Herrmann, how about that?

         7           A.    Yes.

         8           Q.    Tell me about that.

         9           A.    Again, it was -- everybody was aware of it.

        10   I personally have seen people coming through, residents,

        11   commissioners, coming through, it's kind of an open

        12   office and it's pretty much common knowledge that there

        13   was stuff on there.

        14           Q.    Let me be specific.  I'm understanding your

        15   answer but I just want to delve more into it.  What

        16   commissioners, do you know, who were aware of matters,

        17   matters of there being pornography on that computer?

        18           A.    I believe Don Weiner was, I believe he was

        19   mayor at the time.  Again, I'm not exactly sure of the

        20   time frame.  I mean, more closely to today's date, I'm

        21   aware that the building official was in there and have

        22   seen it.

        23           Q.    By commissioners, I'm not limiting it to

        24   this close to this date.

        25           A.    My understanding of the commissioners knew

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         1   about it.

         2           Q.    Now, you stated a couple of times in answer

         3   to my question it was common knowledge, everybody knew

         4   about it.  We don't know about it, we weren't there.  You

         5   got to kind of help us out.  What are you basing that on?

         6           A.    I've seen it myself on numerous occasions.

         7           Q.    Have other people been in the room with you

         8   any of those times?

         9           A.    Yes.

        10           Q.    Mr. Weiner, for instance, has been in the

        11   room with you during those times?

        12           A.    Mr. Weiner, I can't be specific.  I can't

        13   sit here and tell you about a specific incident that I

        14   saw Don Weiner and Chief Larry McCarty sitting at the

        15   computer staring at this.

        16           Q.    What can you tell me about Mr. Weiner's

        17   knowledge about the material on the computer?

        18                 MR. MCDUFF:  I object to the form as to

        19           time frame.  We want to know for the record here

        20           was it during the period of time he was on the

        21           commission or mayor or some point in time when he

        22           was no longer in his elected capacity?

        23   BY MR. ISAACS:

        24           Q.    We can limit it to that time.

        25           A.    I can say to the best of my recollection,

                                                                     20

         1   Mr. Weiner constantly would come into the police

         2   department even after he was no longer in office.

         3           Q.    We kind of glossed over it, let me go back.

         4   What exactly was it that you saw on that computer?

         5           A.    A lot of it was mostly E-mails being sent

         6   or that he received.

         7           Q.    Do you know from whom?

         8           A.    Well, on some occasions, I saw the name

         9   Larry McCarthy most recently.  Some were forwarded to me

        10   at my home computer.

        11           Q.    Forwarded by whom?

        12           A.    Chief Larry McCarty.

        13           Q.    Do you know, could you tell from the paper

        14   trail who sent it to him?

        15           A.    Actually, that was forwarded -- that was

        16   sent by Chief Larry McCarty, and it was also carbon

        17   copied to Don Weiner.

        18           Q.    You mentioned Charles Sagomo?

        19           A.    Charles Sagomo.

        20           Q.    Who is that?

        21           A.    He's a resident who is also a contractor,

        22   and he did some work on the police department.

        23           Q.    And has he ever held, ever been a Town

        24   commissioner?

        25           A.    No.

                                                                     21

         1           Q.    Okay.  Are you aware of any Town managers

         2   that have had knowledge of the material on the computer?

         3           A.    I believe Mr. Dorsky knew.  He was the Town

         4   manager at the time.

         5           Q.    What do you base that belief on?

         6           A.    Conversations I had with the chief and the

         7   mayor.  At one time Mark Kepflex.  I was over at a

         8   completely different situation I had with the Town.  They

         9   owed me money and they were questioning it, and I brought

        10   that up to them.  I believe they were aware of it.

        11           Q.    You brought it up.  You have to backup for

        12   me.  You guys we're talking about the Town owing you

        13   money and he brought up the sexual images on the

        14   computer?

        15           A.    Yeah, that along with some other things.

        16           Q.    You've got to explain to me how that comes

        17   up, what context.

        18           A.    The Town had owed me some money.  I

        19   requested that they pay me, and this is over -- they owed

        20   to me for three years and they were questioning it.

        21           Q.    What time frame was this questioning,

        22   conversation?

        23           A.    It goes back to the actual money amount

        24   owed was.

        25           Q.    What time frame was it when were you having

                                                                     22

         1   this conversation?

         2           A.    When Mark Kepflex was the mayor.

         3           Q.    Was Ms. Herrmann still working there?

         4           A.    Yes.

         5           Q.    Okay.

         6           A.    You want me to explain how this even came

         7   about?

         8           Q.    Yes.

         9           A.    It's kind of off track.  I don't know how

        10   else to explain.

        11           Q.    Explain it anyway you can.

        12           A.    Way back in the meeting negotiations --

        13   this goes into my time frame, my mindset of possible

        14   retaliations.  We tried to bring the union into Town,

        15   actually we did bring the union into the Town, and I was

        16   a union representative.  Negotiations were not good.

        17   They weren't easy negotiations, and I felt that I had

        18   been threatened on several occasions individually for

        19   bringing in the union.

        20                 At one point, I'm trying to think who the

        21   Town manager was at that time, the basis of this all is

        22   they turned around and they came up with a sheet of paper

        23   saying we all owed money for medical, all employees of

        24   the Town of Sewalls Point owed money for medical which

        25   they hadn't deducted, and they came up with a list, and

                                                                     23

         1   they threw the list in front of us on the negotiations

         2   table stating they're now going to deduct all these huge

         3   amounts of money from the employees.

         4                 And ironically I was the only one that had

         5   over paid and they owed me, it was a small amount, $300,

         6   300 and some odd dollars, and they took it off the table

         7   and they decided that they weren't going to make these

         8   people reimburse them, and I questioned them, well, if I

         9   overpaid, then you owe me the money, I would like the

        10   money.  And it got kind of sidetracked for two or three

        11   years.  I kept requesting it on occasion, and they never

        12   paid it.  I thought it was owed to me.

        13                 And I finally turned around and asked for a

        14   meeting with the mayor and the Town manager, who was

        15   Dorsky at the time, and Chief McCarty and Mayor Kepflex

        16   and myself were in a meeting, and this wasn't a

        17   negotiation, this was a -- I told them that I wanted the

        18   money they owed me.  They owed me the money.  I had a

        19   document stating that they owed me the money from the

        20   Town, and they refused to pay it.

        21                 I showed them the Florida statute that, you

        22   know, they had to pay me the money or if I filed, I could

        23   get double tremble charges they would owe me, and I

        24   brought up several other incidents, if I'm going to the

        25   FDLE, I'm going to tell them the truth of what I know,

                                                                     24

         1   and that's where the pornography come into play to get

         2   back to your original question.

         3           Q.    What was their response?  Did they say

         4   anything about the pornography?

         5           A.    I was told to sit there for a minute.  They

         6   went in and talked to the Town manager.  They came back

         7   about 15 minutes later and stated that they decided that

         8   it was in everybody's best interest to pay me.

         9           Q.    Who was the Town manager then?

        10           A.    Dorsky.

        11           Q.    Ms. Herrmann was still employed at that

        12   time?

        13           A.    Yes.

        14           Q.    I'm trying to get this question, we don't

        15   get there.  What is it that you saw on Chief McCarty's

        16   computer?

        17           A.    One I specifically saw, it's -- it was

        18   called rate a tit, excuse my language, but that's what it

        19   was called.  And it was a picture of breasts, female

        20   breasts and you had to rate them.

        21           Q.    Let me ask you, was that a program?  Was it

        22   a video?  Was it a -- how did it work?  You click

        23   something, it went somewhere else?  How did it work on

        24   the computer?

        25           A.    I couldn't tell you.  It was interactive.

                                                                     25

         1   You rated whether it was one to 10 what you thought the,

         2   quote, breasts was a one to 10.

         3           Q.    Do you know whether that was a web site as

         4   opposed to E-mail?

         5           A.    I don't know.

         6           Q.    What else do you recall seeing?  By the

         7   way, how are you seeing this?  Are you sneaking into the

         8   room when no one is there?  How are you getting to look

         9   at the screen?

        10           A.    As I previously stated, it's an open

        11   office, people are walking in and out.  People were

        12   walking in and out all the time.

        13           Q.    Did someone invite you to play, rate a tit?

        14           A.    No, I wasn't invited to play.

        15           Q.    You were shown it?

        16           A.    I was shown it.

        17           Q.    By the chief?

        18                 MR. MCDUFF:  Objection, leading.

        19                 MR. ISAACS: He's your officers.  You are

        20           not calling him?

        21                 MR. MCDUFF:  Objection, leading.

        22   BY MR. ISAACS:

        23           Q.    Who invited you?  Did anyone invite you in

        24   to see that?

        25           A.    Specifically no one said, Scott, come here,

                                                                     26

         1   and take a look at this program, no.

         2           Q.    How was it that you saw it?

         3           A.    On a daily basis, when I'm there, I