 |
| Home |
| Contact |
|
Post Comments: YOUR TURN |
|
Town Meeting - AEGNDA HERE |
| TEA PARTY & POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS |
| Pointers Only FPL |
| "COPS" |
| Martin Co. Info |
|
BARAM-METER Obamas ICEBERG |
| Florida State Gov. |
| GOPUSA.com |
| Stock It To Me |
| Good Guys |
| Dirt Bags / Air Bags! |
| Immigration FREE 4 u DAILY |
| RX |
| Think about it Climate Change & More |
| STUFF |
| Building Dept. |
| National Government Links nat_govt.shtml |
| Photo Gallery |
|
disclaimer |
today's news!
Wall Street Journal
All FREE 4 u DAILY- WSJ electronic
Print Edition here:
Today's Paper
Free Republic
Drudge Report
The American Thinker
FrontPage Magazine
WASH POST WASHINGTON TIMES
USA TODAY http://www.redcounty.com
WORLDNETDAILY
MAUREEN DOWD
New York Post
KRAUTHAMMER
MICHELLE MALKIN
Michael Barone
Laura
Opinion (usnews.com)
Home On The Web
above Barack & Michelle's AmeriCorps scandal
Heritage Foundation
YouTube Recently Featured
Hugh Fitzgerald Books"
OBSESSION " movietrailer clickthislink
U.S. Government's Official Web Portal
.
1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
2 CASE NO. 05-14197 CIV MOORE/LYNCH
3
DENISE HERRMANN,
4
Plaintiff,
5
-vs-
6
TOWN OF SEWALLS POINT AND LARRY
7 MCCARTY,
8 Defendants.
____________________________________/
9
10 DEPOSITION OF JOAN BARROW
11
12 THURSDAY, MAY 4TH, 2006
3:30 p.m. - 4:32 p.m.
13
14
900 EAST OCEAN BOULEVARD
15 STUART, FLORIDA
16
17
18
Reported By:
19 Aileen Woodward, Court Reporter
Notary Public, State of Florida
20 Consor & Associates Reporting and Transcription
West Palm Beach Office
21 Phone - 561.835.9738
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2 On behalf of the Plaintiff:
GARY A. ISAACS, ESQUIRE
3 GARY A. ISACCS, P.A.
250 AUSTRALIAN AVENUE SOUTH
4 SUITE 1401
WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA 33401
5
On behalf of the Defendant:
6 RICHARD MCDUFF, ESQUIRE
JOHNSON, ANSELMO
7 2455 EAST SUNRISE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1000
8 FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA 33304
9 On behalf of the Defendant:
STEPHANIE DEUTSCH, ESQUIRE
10 LEWIS, STROUD & DEUTSCH, P.L.
1900 GLADES ROAD
11 SUITE 251
BOCA RATON, FLORIDA 33431
12
13 ALSO PRESENT
DENISE HERRMANN, PLAINTIFF
14
- - -
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 Deposition taken before Aileen Woodward,
2 Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public in and
3 for the State of Florida at Large, in the above cause.
4 - - -
5 Thereupon,
6 JOAN BARROW,
7 having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was examined
8 and testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. ISAACS:
11 Q. Hello?
12 A. Hi.
13 Q. My name is Gary Isaacs, I'm representing
14 Ms. Herrmann. Thank you for showing up at the
15 deposition. Sorry to send you home and back and forth.
16 Can you state your name, please.
17 A. Joan Barrow.
18 Q. Spell your last name.
19 A. B-a-r-r-o-w.
20 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. When was the last time that you were
23 deposed?
24 A. Maybe five, six years ago.
25 Q. Let me give you some reminders since it's
4
1 been awhile. I'm going to ask a series of questions.
2 She's going to, the court reporter is going to take down
3 what we say.
4 A. Uh-huh. All right.
5 Q. You just uh-huh when I say --
6 A. I'm sorry, yes.
7 Q. That's one of the first rules?
8 A. I understand.
9 Q. Try to answer audibly, nods or head shakes,
10 uh-huh or uh-uh aren't going to work too well. If you
11 forget, we'll remind you.
12 A. All right.
13 Q. Try to allow me to finish my question
14 before you give your answer. You'll probably know
15 exactly what I'm going to ask, it makes it impossible for
16 her to type down both of us at same time. I'll try my
17 best not to start the next question until you're done.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. If you need take a break at any time, let
20 us know. If you need to stretch your legs, go to the
21 lady's room, smoke, whatever.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. If I ask you a question you don't
24 understand, let me know, it will be my job to rephrase it
25 in a manner you do understand. Okay?
5
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Additionally, nobody here wants you to
3 guess. If you know something, we want to hear it. If
4 you don't remember, just tell me you don't remember.
5 How are you employed, ma'am?
6 A. I'm the Town clerk/treasurer of the Town of
7 Sewalls Point.
8 Q. Is that Town clerk slash treasurer?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And how long have you been the Town
11 clerk/treasurer of the Town of Sewalls Point?
12 A. I'll start my 29th year in September.
13 Q. Okay. That continuous duty?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I do my math in my head pretty quick,
16 that will be 1977?
17 A. '78.
18 Q. Okay. Have you held that same role that
19 entire time?
20 A. I started as the Town clerk and than I was
21 named treasurer, I was given the additional
22 responsibility. I don't recall exactly when that
23 happened.
24 Q. What are your, if I refer to the Town in my
25 question, please understand I mean the Town of Sewalls
6
1 Point?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. What are your duties as Town
4 clerk/treasurer, if you want to, you can break it up
5 between the two halves, that's fine.
6 A. Well, the Town clerk is responsible for
7 taking the minutes of all of the commission meetings.
8 I'm the custodian of the public records. I do all the
9 payroll, the accounting, that's basically what it is.
10 Q. And as the treasurer, what are your duties,
11 that's the payroll counterpart?
12 A. That's what I was talking about.
13 Q. You know Ms. Herrmann?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. She was at one point in time an employee of
16 the Town?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. For next couple of questions will be
19 regarding during the time period of tenure of her
20 employment. Where were you physically located when you
21 did your day-to-day job during that time period?
22 A. It's actually changed. When she started,
23 she was in the police department and I was sitting at the
24 counter, which is in the main area of the Town hall, and
25 later on I moved to an office that was located in the
7
1 back of the building.
2 Q. Okay. Let's start off when you were at the
3 counter.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Where was that in relation to where
6 Ms. Herrmann would sit?
7 A. I'm not really good at distances. It was
8 perhaps --
9 Q. Let me help you out --
10 A. -- a hundred feet away from her.
11 Q. Could you see her from where you were?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Was it down the hallway in one big room?
14 A. No, I'm sorry. It was, the police
15 department is separate, and there is like a Dutch door,
16 like a half a door.
17 Q. Half a door?
18 A. Yes. Sometimes it would be open and
19 sometimes it would be closed, and I could basically see
20 her from where I sat.
21 Q. If you were speaking in the tone you're
22 speaking now, could you hear her from where she sat?
23 A. It would depend if there were other people
24 talking at the time, I could, yes.
25 Q. Were there times during the course of the
8
1 day you would need to speak with her for one thing or
2 another?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Would you pickup the phone and call and
5 yell, hey, Deni?
6 A. I would probably walk to the Dutch door and
7 say, hey, Deni.
8 Q. During some period of time your location
9 changed?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And the best you can give me a time frame
12 when that change occurred?
13 A. It was after O'Brian was starting. It was
14 so distracting she spoke in such a loud voice. It was so
15 distracting I couldn't concentrate. I switched offices
16 and I moved back.
17 Q. You moved Ms. O'Brian?
18 A. No. The counter had seats for two, and she
19 sat on one side and I sat on the other side. And then I
20 moved into what was the building official's office, and
21 he moved into the mayor's office. It's complicated.
22 Q. When you moved how far would you have been
23 from where Deni sat when you were in the new location?
24 A. When I moved, I was farther away from where
25 Deni was. I couldn't see or hear her at that point when
9
1 I was in the back office.
2 Q. You know Chief McCarty?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. That's a yes?
5 A. Yes, I do. I'm sorry.
6 Q. I told you you would do it, I'll remind
7 you.
8 A. Right.
9 MS. DEUTSCH: Don't worry, he does it, too.
10 BY MR. ISAACS:
11 Q. Uh-huh. Do you have interaction
12 professionally with Chief McCarthy as the Town
13 clerk/treasurer?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain to me what kind of
16 interaction do you have?
17 A. Well, it's a very small Town and a small
18 staff. So naturally we all work together. I do the
19 police payroll. So he has to give me the information
20 about what hours were worked and who is entitled to court
21 time, overtime. People come in the Town hall and have
22 problems and sometimes they need to refer them to Chief
23 McCarthy.
24 Q. On an average week, how many times do you
25 speak with Chief McCarthy other than good morning, how
10
1 are you doing?
2 A. Nearly everyday.
3 Q. Have you had occasion during the course of
4 your employment to physically be in Chief McCarthy's
5 office?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Approximately how often would you find
8 yourself in his office?
9 A. During the week or -- during the normal
10 week you're saying?
11 Q. Yes, ma'am.
12 A. Maybe one or -- one or two times.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Usually I would stand and he would be at
15 the Dutch door and I would talk to him that way.
16 Q. Who is -- I've never been to the Town hall.
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. It's sounds like the police department and
19 the other Town officials are physically situated in
20 fairly close proximity?
21 A. That's correct. It's a small building.
22 Q. You are not a police department employee?
23 A. No, I'm not.
24 Q. Who is your -- well, currently today, who
25 is your direct supervisor?
11
1 A. Today?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. It's the mayor.
4 Q. Has it always been the mayor depending on
5 who the mayor is?
6 A. It's usually a Town manager, but that
7 position is vacant at the current time.
8 Q. That's like today. If there is a Town
9 manager, that's who you report to?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. You probably reported to several different
12 Town managers over the last 29 years, right?
13 A. Actually we only started having Town
14 managers about four years ago, and we had four. We're
15 hard on them.
16 Q. You're looking to hire the fifth? That's a
17 yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Prior to four years ago, do you remember
20 what year it was that your supervisor ceased being -- I'm
21 sorry, who was your supervisor prior to the time that it
22 would have been the Town manager?
23 A. The mayor.
24 Q. Do you remember when that would have
25 occurred that change?
12
1 A. When we first hired a Town manager?
2 Q. Yes, ma'am.
3 A. That was Joe Dorsky, and I believe he came
4 in the year 2000 or -- no, let's see. I don't know. I
5 don't remember.
6 Q. Okay. Have you ever had occasion to see
7 any materials on Chief McCarthy's computer monitor that
8 you deemed inappropriate for the work place?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Tell me about that, please.
11 A. There was a time, and I believe he called
12 me in his office, there was raucous laughter.
13 Q. Being who?
14 A. Chief McCarthy. There was raucous
15 laughter, come in here and see it. It was a man in the
16 field and he had his pants down so as if he had been
17 relieving himself, and there was a Donkey and the Donkey
18 chased the man and they had sex.
19 Q. Is this a carton?
20 A. No, it was real people.
21 Q. Is this a video?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said there was raucous laughter, was
24 anyone laughing with him or was he sitting alone?
25 A. It was Gene Simons, the building official
13
1 and Larry.
2 Q. Jean Simon, what was his title?
3 A. Building official.
4 Q. That's his title?
5 A. Building official.
6 Q. Is he still with the Town?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you remember when this was?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Would Ms. Herrmann have been an
11 employee of the Town? Do you remember whether this would
12 have been during Ms. Herman's tenure?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. Other than that occasion, did you ever see
15 anything else on Chief McCarthy's computer that you felt
16 was inappropriate?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell me about that, please.
19 A. There were pictures of bare breasts and it
20 was like a, not a game, but it was like, can you choose
21 the ones that are real and the ones that have silicone.
22 Q. How computer literate are you?
23 A. Average.
24 Q. Okay. Could you tell from that, that game
25 we were just talking about, whether that was a web site
14
1 or an E-mail that was sent to him, do you know?
2 A. I couldn't tell.
3 Q. Was it interactive, did you pick? Do you
4 remember if you picked?
5 A. I was disgusted and I really didn't pay
6 that much attention to it.
7 Q. I understand. Did you say anything --
8 strike that.
9 Was anyone else in the room at that time
10 with choosing the breasts?
11 A. It's my recollection it was Gene Simon and
12 Larry McCarthy.
13 Q. Were you called in again?
14 A. No, I was not called in at that point.
15 Q. How did it come about?
16 A. It came about, I was waiting to talk to him
17 and it was on his computer screen, and they were laughing
18 and -- and I needed to talk to him. When they finished I
19 spoke to him.
20 Q. Was the screen setup in a physical manner
21 that if you walked into the office you would be able to
22 view what was on it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told me about two occasions. Are there
25 anymore occasions?
15
1 A. Those are the only ones that you recall.
2 Q. Make sure I understand. Are you saying
3 that -- well, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
4 You obviously have a specific recollection of those two
5 incidents. Do you know whether there was more? Do you
6 know whether there was more? You just can't recall them
7 specifically or you are not sure if there was anymore?
8 A. It's difficult to answer. In such a small
9 building and because we were work so closely, when I
10 heard that type of raucous laughter, I would pretty much
11 know what was going on, and it happened quite frequently.
12 I personally did not see other instances, I think he knew
13 that I was disgusted.
14 Q. The incident with the donkey or mule,
15 whatever you said?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Donkey or mule, whatever word?
18 A. It was a mule, I believe.
19 Q. I'm really wanting to into detail with
20 this. Do you know how long the video was, any idea,
21 seconds, a minute?
22 A. Less than a minute.
23 Q. And the animal and the person actually had
24 intercourse?
25 A. It appeared that way.
16
1 Q. What did you say, anything?
2 A. I walked out. I didn't say anything. I
3 just walked out.
4 Q. Was that before you were in there, the
5 incident with the game with picking the breasts?
6 A. The breasts were afterwards if I recall,
7 yeah.
8 Q. At that time did you say anything?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did they say anything to you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did they say this is how you play the game?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Look how funny this is?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever talk to any other employee of
17 the Town who told you that they had seen anything like
18 that on the chief's computer?
19 A. Darlene Novak had indicated that she had
20 seen things that she considered vulgar.
21 Q. Okay. How did that come about, do you
22 remember the conversation who brought the subject up?
23 A. She was just generally disgusted with
24 everything that was going on at the Town hall, and I
25 believe it came up in that context.
17
1 Q. Okay. Did you ever -- did she go by Dee?
2 Was she known by Dee?
3 A. Darlene and her nickname is Dee.
4 Q. Did you ever have conversations with Dee,
5 Ms. Herrmann regarding things that she said she had seen
6 on the chief's computer?
7 A. Just a general conversation that she was,
8 you know, revolted by what was going on.
9 Q. Okay. The one time?
10 A. No. Several times.
11 Q. Okay. Again, would it be more or less the
12 two of you? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
13 What can you tell me about these general conversations?
14 A. Well, I have to backup a little bit,
15 forgive me.
16 Q. Sure.
17 A. I've known Larry McCarthy for a long, long
18 time, over 20 years, and this is all so disappointing and
19 sad to me, because when he first started he, I believe,
20 had dropped out of high school, he had his GED and he had
21 been working in a hardware store.
22 So he was hired as a police officer, and I
23 was having a lot of difficulty doing reports, because he
24 didn't know grammar and spelling. So I would help him,
25 and we became friends, and he had his wedding reception
18
1 at my home actually when he married his current wife.
2 Q. What year would that have been, do you have
3 any idea?
4 A. About 20 years ago. And I helped him, and
5 I wanted him to succeed, because I thought he had a lot
6 of potential and was a late bloomer, and I told him that
7 several times. And he advanced in the police department
8 and did well, and then he became chief, and it's like he
9 lost his humility. It's so disappointing to me it's come
10 to this.
11 And, I mean, a police officer, people cut
12 him a lot of slack because he's the police chief and he
13 wears the uniform. He has the gun, and it's as if, to
14 me, I'm so personally disappointed, he's dishonored the
15 office and this whole thing is so painful for me because
16 of the background that we have.
17 Q. I understand.
18 A. I just wanted to put that in context for
19 you.
20 Q. Let me go back because I would like to
21 explore the conversations you had with Deni?
22 A. And that's what I was getting to. The
23 other thing, I didn't want to mention, he bettered
24 himself so much, he went to a school, I don't remember
25 the name of it, where they give you credit for life
19
1 experiences, and he took courses and he ended up getting
2 a degree, which was wonderful. So he really had bettered
3 himself.
4 Deni had been friends with the chief before
5 she started working for the Town, and I think she
6 respected him at that point, and I had respected him for
7 what he had achieved. And I think when, actually when
8 Gene Simon started working at the Town is when things
9 started deteriorating, and Deni and I would have
10 conversations about that, how disappointed we were in the
11 way that Larry was acting, and the things that were on
12 the computer and the goofing off and those kind of
13 things. So those are the conversations that Deni and I
14 would have. It wasn't specifically, did you see this
15 particular thing on the computer, it was just the whole
16 pervasive atmosphere.
17 Q. Included in that the two of you didn't
18 discuss details --
19 A. No.
20 Q. -- of what you had seen?
21 Was there communication regarding I went in
22 and saw another one of Larry's pictures or things of that
23 sort?
24 A. It was just I knew what was going on, and I
25 knew she was disgusted, and we wouldn't really discuss it
20
1 specifically, but we would commiserate.
2 Q. You knew by what is going on. Did you know
3 that or did she tell you or did you see that the chief
4 would call Deni in to share some of these pictures with
5 her?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I asked a compound question, she should
8 have stopped from me doing it. Did they tell you -- did
9 she tell you that happened or did you actually see it or
10 both?
11 A. No, I saw it.
12 Q. The obvious question is, why didn't
13 somebody do something about it?
14 A. I tried.
15 Q. Tell me about that.
16 A. I went to Mr. Dorsky, who was the Town
17 manager, very nice man, but he was in his seventies his
18 health was failing, and he was foggy. He was only there
19 three days a week, and he would go in and watch the
20 things on the computer, too. And then I went to the
21 mayor when -- can I talk about when -- Royce harassed
22 Ms. Herrmann or not.
23 Q. You can. I want to get -- I'll get there.
24 Let me ask you for a time frame.
25 A. Okay.
21
1 Q. And that was a good benchmark. Would you
2 have gone to Mr. Dorsky prior to going -- prior to the
3 Royce situation?
4 A. No, and because I thought it was a waste of
5 time because anything that you told Mr. Dorsky he would
6 blow it off.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. And my prime example of that, and I was so
9 appalled Deni's predecessor at the police department
10 Patricia Chandler had cancer and she died actually, and
11 when I told Mr. Dorsky, he came in on Tuesday, and she
12 had died on Saturday, and I said Tricia died this weekend
13 and his response was, oh, she did. And I just couldn't
14 believe it. I mean, I could not believe it. But this
15 was his reaction to anything. You could tell him the
16 building is on fire, it would have been, oh, ha-ha, it
17 is. It was so bizarre.
18 Q. You felt it was a waste of time?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. Me finish the question.
21 MR. MCDUFF: Objection to form, leading.
22 THE WITNESS: I considered I would be
23 wasting, absolutely wasting my time in view of the
24 fact he was in Larry's office yucking it up at
25 some of the things on the computer. So who would
22
1 I complain to.
2 BY MR. ISAACS:
3 Q. Let's use the time frame of that first mule
4 thing that you saw.
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Was Dorsky the Town manager by that time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Royce, you started talking about
9 Royce.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell me about that conversation with the
12 mayor.
13 A. Can I talk?
14 Q. You can talk about anything you want to
15 talk about. Who was the mayor?
16 A. The mayor at that time was John Chiccho.
17 Jose, the maintenance man needed knee surgery. Laura
18 O'Brian said her husband was free and could fill in, I
19 thought that was a little odd. But whatever. And I went
20 to Mr. Dorsky and I said I thought we had an anti
21 nepotism policy, why on earth are we hiring Laura's
22 husband. Well, it's only temporary so it doesn't matter.
23 So Royce has a different name, even though
24 him and Laura are married, she kept his maiden name. He
25 was hired sight unseen, which turned out to be a huge
23
1 mistake. I don't want to be rude, one of the residents
2 thought he was a homeless person, that's the kind of
3 appearance he made with the tattoos and the ponytail and
4 scruffy looking, it was awful. And he was sleazy is the
5 only way I can describe it, and when he started making an
6 inappropriate comment to Deni, Deni told me about it. I
7 went to Mr. Dorsky and he blew me off again.
8 At one point I think I went to him two or
9 three times on it and one of the times he said he didn't
10 really think it happened, and that he had conducted an
11 investigation, which I thought was really odd because he
12 never talked to me about what I had observed or what --
13 what I knew, and he never talked to Officer Brady about
14 what she had observed or what she knew.
15 So then when I got no action from
16 Mr. Dorsky and I knew Deni was very upset, I went to
17 Mayor Chicky, I said there is a problem in the police
18 department, you need to be on top of it. He was also the
19 police commissioner at that time. And he apparently went
20 right to Larry McCarthy and said, John says there is a
21 problem in the police department, and the next thing I
22 know, I have Larry McCarthy yelling at me, how dare you
23 tell Mayor Chicky there is a problem in the police
24 department. So I -- I just couldn't win.
25 Q. And that was actually, you understood the
24
1 Town manager, it's your job as the Town clerk --
2 A. Yes, it was my responsibility.
3 MR. MCDUFF: Objection, leading.
4 BY MR. ISAACS:
5 Q. -- under the Town manual if you believe
6 someone is beings sexually harassed?
7 MR. MCDUFF: Objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I would go to the Town
9 manager as the Town clerk.
10 BY MR. ISAACS:
11 Q. Either one?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. They go to you, they're in compliance with
14 the policy?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And the chief yelled at you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For doing your job?
19 A. He really shouted how dare I tell Mayor
20 Chicky there are problems in the police department. And
21 I realized at that point there was no use trying to have
22 a logical discussion with him, because when you try to
23 have a logical conversation with him, it would come back
24 to you, taken totally out of context and distorted and
25 twisted. It was a terrible situation.
25
1 Q. I'm going to hand you a document we've
2 already -- we'll just keep the numbers running or start
3 all over.
4 MR. ISAACS: It will be Plaintiff's 1.
5 MR. MCDUFF: Hearsay exception, Mr. Isaacs.
6 (Plaintiff's No. 1, was marked for
7 identification.)
8 BY MR. ISAACS:
9 Q. Ma'am, I'm handing you a document that is
10 marked Exhibit 1, Plaintiff's 1, and I apologize for the
11 lousy condition of paragraph, of page two there. Have
12 you ever seen this document before?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. And how is it that you've seen this
15 document?
16 A. It -- okay. This is in 2000 when Rick
17 Crouse was terminated. I believe I saw it at that time
18 in connection with his determination.
19 Q. Okay. Where would you have been when you
20 saw it?
21 A. It might have been received at the Town
22 hall, because the stamp on it, the copy is a stamp that I
23 use, which would indicate that I had made a copy, and I
24 would have something like this. I would have given it to
25 the police commissioner, who was the mayor at the time,
26
1 Mayor Chicky.
2 Q. Beyond the copy you have an independent
3 recollection of this document, do you not?
4 A. What I'm saying, this stamp on here that
5 says copy, that is the kind of stamp that I use to
6 indicate that something is a copy.
7 Q. Back in 2000, was there a binder, public
8 record binder of some sort that the Town utilized?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell me about that, please.
11 A. We have a clipboard where all incoming
12 correspondence is kept.
13 Q. We being the Town?
14 A. All out corresponding is kept.
15 Q. We being the Town?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This document would have gone in that?
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 MR. MCDUFF: It's turned in public record
20 by that.
21 MR. ISAACS: I want to find it's not there
22 any more.
23 THE WITNESS: The reason I'm saying that is
24 because it was not signed. And typically, Mayor
25 Chicky, if I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure it
27
1 was him, he was not going to give any credibility
2 to unsigned complaints.
3 BY MR. ISAACS:
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. So your question was, did you keep a copy
6 in the public records, I don't think so, because of that,
7 because he said it was an anonymous complaint, that he
8 did not feel we had an obligation to keep it.
9 Q. But the mayor, you said Chicky?
10 A. Chicky was the police commissioner.
11 Q. He was aware of this document?
12 A. To the best of my recollection, yes.
13 Q. Do you know whether he made any other Town
14 commissioners at that time period aware that the Town had
15 received this document?
16 A. I would not know that. He doesn't talked
17 to the other commissioners because of the Sunshine Law.
18 Q. I was thinking in terms of council meeting
19 actually --
20 A. Right.
21 Q. -- as opposed to --
22 A. Right.
23 Q. -- having golf course talk?
24 A. There were a lot of meetings when Crouse
25 was terminated, several meetings with the Police
28
1 Benevolent Association. So I would have to look back and
2 see, you know, if this particular letter was discussed at
3 a public meeting. I don't recall if it was.
4 Q. Do you know whether, when the mayor saw
5 this document, whether he took any action with regard to
6 paragraph 2, page three, specifically which dealt with
7 the chief viewing pornography during work hours?
8 A. I have no knowledge if he took action.
9 Q. Do you know in this time frame, the year
10 2000, whether the Town undertook any investigation for
11 this allegation?
12 A. If they did any investigation?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Not that I'm aware of.
15 Q. Are you aware if the Town ever conducted an
16 investigation with regard to the chief viewing
17 pornographic material during work hours?
18 MR. MCDUFF: Object to the form.
19 MR. ISAACS: What is wrong with the form?
20 Porno stuff?
21 MR. MCDUFF: Porno.
22 BY MR. ISAACS:
23 Q. After the Donkey story, you objected to
24 that?
25 A. After -- after that -- after Deni filed
29
1 suit.
2 Q. Let me make it prior.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Before Deni.
5 A. After Deni filed suit, the Town hired a
6 computer expert to check all the computers.
7 Q. Would that be the Merkins?
8 MR. MCDUFF: Merkin.
9 BY MR. ISAACS:
10 Q. Merkin. Before those experts got to the
11 computer, did the Merkins get to the computer?
12 A. The Merkins were in the Town hall on a
13 daily basis working on the computer. I mentioned it to
14 Mr. Merkin, I said I think it's inappropriate for
15 citizens to be working on our computers, and he agreed
16 and he wrote a memorandum. I'm very, I'm 99 and half
17 percent he wrote a memorandum saying that people, outside
18 people were not to be on the Town's computers.
19 Q. Do you know what, you said they were there
20 nearly everyday or something like that. Do you know what
21 time frame that was that they were there nearly everyday?
22 A. It was after Deni left the first time.
23 Q. Okay. There was a point in time where
24 Deni -- are you aware there was a point in time where
25 Deni had a meeting with the Town attorney to talk about
30
1 these things?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How did you find out about that?
4 A. She told me.
5 Q. Okay. Sometime thereafter she stopped
6 coming to work?
7 A. That's correct. She was too upset.
8 Q. Do you recall the time frame, whether that
9 was days, weeks, months or years?
10 A. Well, okay, I'm going by hurricane season.
11 Wilma was in 2005. Francis and Jean 2004. It was in the
12 spring of 2004.
13 Q. Okay. Do you remember how long it was
14 after she told you that she went and spoke to the Town
15 attorney until she was too upset and stopped going to
16 work?
17 A. Days. Maybe even that day.
18 Q. Okay. When did the Merkins start showing
19 up on nearly a daily basis compared to when she left work
20 there?
21 MS. DEUTSCH: Object to the form.
22 THE WITNESS: What?
23 MS. DEUTSCH: You can answer.
24 MR. MCDUFF: It's just a legal objection.
25 THE WITNESS: The Merkins had come in
31
1 previously but after Deni left the first time,
2 they were there, I'm going to say, for like 10
3 days on a daily basis until I complained to Mr.
4 McMann, who was the Town manager who had succeeded
5 Mr. Dorsky.
6 BY MR. ISAACS:
7 Q. Were you concerned that their appearance
8 had anything to do with Deni's allegations?
9 A. It was kind of a logical conclusion.
10 Q. Explain to me the logical process you were
11 thinking?
12 A. Well, Larry was very upset about what had
13 occurred, and it just seemed way too much of a
14 coincidence the Merkins are coming in and working on all
15 the computers.
16 Q. Were you ever -- I asked you before about
17 the Town investigation, I think we got to the computer
18 people. Were you ever interviewed regarding what you had
19 seen or hadn't seen on the chief's computer?
20 A. No, not until today.
21 Q. Did you ever refuse to give an interview of
22 anyone that asked you to?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was there an affidavit ever drafted for
25 your behalf?
32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How did that come about?
3 A. A man in J.D. Richardson's office came to
4 the Town hall with his lap top and had a series of
5 questions and asked me questions, and they were very
6 limited in scope, and I told him at the time that I
7 objected because it presented a very narrow picture of
8 what the situation was. He said it didn't matter, I just
9 needed to answer those particular questions and signed
10 the affidavit.
11 Q. Can you give me what you mean by limited in
12 scope?
13 A. Did I ever hear Chief McCarthy yell and
14 scream at Deni Herrmann, I said no, but I have heard him
15 being arrogant, condescending, rude and no, I didn't hear
16 him yell and scream. I've never heard him at that time,
17 I had not heard him yell or scream at Deni.
18 Q. Subsequent to that did you hear him yell
19 and scream at Deni?
20 A. Yes. After that when she came back the
21 second time.
22 Q. We'll get to that. Let me ask you. Did he
23 ask you any questions about -- were you questioned at
24 that time about sexually explicit photographs or --
25 photographs or material that was sexual in nature?
33
1 A. No, he did not.
2 Q. Really?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You didn't tell him about the donkey video
5 or anything?
6 A. No, he didn't ask.
7 Q. He was asking too narrow questions?
8 A. I told him I was happy about the affidavit
9 in particular, don't worry about it. I'm asking these
10 questions, answer the questions, and I believe, in fact,
11 I know Mr. McMann was present during the time when I gave
12 the affidavit.
13 Q. You kind of gave me an answer, let me go
14 there. At some point in time Deni comes back to work for
15 the Town, right?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Yes?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. How was she, from what you could
20 see, how was she treated by the chief?
21 A. Terrible.
22 Q. Could you elaborate on that, please.
23 A. I have to tell you first, I feel very
24 guilty and responsible because I told Deni the Town
25 manager had been hired, Mr. McMann, and I thought he was
34
1 a gentleman, and that I thought he would protect her. I
2 said, Deni, you need to hang in there and come back and
3 tough it out, he will protect you and she came back and
4 things were terrible.
5 Q. Could you elaborate on the terrible,
6 please.
7 A. The first thing that I recall is that
8 Lieutenant Tina totally rearranged Deni's work area. She
9 called the locksmith and changed all the locks. She
10 changed the locks on the file cabinets. She rearranged
11 Deni's work area. Deni had to sit with her back facing
12 Tina to the back door where she had to greet people, and
13 I went to Mr. McMann, I think this is really creating a
14 real hostile situation for Deni to work in, and he said,
15 oh, no, it's for efficiency. And at that point I was so
16 disgusted he would stick up for something like that.
17 Q. What you could see as someone that worked
18 in the Town for 29 years did it look like it was a matter
19 of efficiency?
20 MR. MCDUFF: Object to the form.
21 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not.
22 BY MR. ISAACS:
23 Q. You mentioned, I think, the chief raised
24 his voice to Deni at that time once she returned. Can
25 you tell me about that.
35
1 A. She was so condescending, so rude. One
2 specific occasion we were getting ready for Hurricane
3 Francis and Deni and I were in the meeting with a company
4 that was going to store our records during the hurricane,
5 and it was extremely important. And Larry barged in and
6 -- and interrupted the meeting, and like yelled at Deni
7 that she hadn't done something correctly, and she was
8 mortified, and the people we were meeting with, what on
9 earth kind of place is this.
10 Q. From what you could see, if you were in her
11 shoes would you have left?
12 MR. MCDUFF: Object to the form.
13 MS. DEUTSCH: Object to the form.
14 THE WITNESS: Am I supposed to answer that
15 or what?
16 BY MR. ISAACS:
17 Q. You can answer that.
18 A. That's difficult for me, we're two totally
19 different people. Obviously I've worked at the Town for
20 as long as I have, I've put up with a lot of things and
21 that's just the way I am, because that was instilled in
22 me. So I have had rudeness from the chief, and I just
23 take it. It wasn't as severe as what Deni had. I don't
24 know how I would answer your question.
25 Q. Did you blame her for leaving?
36
1 A. No, absolutely not. She was physically
2 sick, I could hear her in the bathroom throwing up. She
3 was a wreck. It was horrible.
4 MR. ISAACS: Let's take a couple minutes --
5 a couple minute break.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 (Break taken.)
8 BY MR. ISAACS:
9 Q. Have you had occasion to overhear the chief
10 fielding phone calls from perspective employers?
11 A. I didn't overhear phone calls per se, no.
12 Q. Do you have any knowledge of the way that
13 the chief has handled references given to former
14 employees?
15 A. I have heard annotates about it.
16 Q. From who?
17 A. Detective Brady.
18 Q. She's a police officer?
19 A. She's a police officer at Sewalls Point.
20 Q. What did Ms. Brady tell you?
21 A. She, I guess -- I'm trying to remember.
22 She wanted to go to the Martin County Sheriff's
23 Department and they had agreed to hire her, and Larry
24 called his friend who was a sergeant or lieutenant with
25 the Sheriff's Department and black balled her, and I
37
1 don't know how it all worked out, but the sergeant who
2 had black balled her got in trouble and Becky was
3 eventually hired. But the way that Larry tried to do
4 that to her was, I knew about it because Becky had told
5 me about it.
6 Q. Do you know of any managers that have been
7 terminated by the Town because they wanted to discipline
8 or terminate the chief?
9 A. That's a rumor.
10 Q. Just a rumor?
11 A. Like two managers, three actually, I'm
12 sorry. McMann, not Dorsky, McMann, Williams and Vidalis.
13 Q. The rumors was all three wanted the chief
14 gone and that's why they got fired?
15 A. Mr. Williams was the interim manager and
16 McCarthy accused him of managing by disruption, and it's
17 funny, Mr. Williams used to have lunch with Larry and
18 Gene everyday, when he displeased him, he cut him off,
19 gave him the silent treatment. And Dr. Vidalis told a
20 resident Gene and Larry did him in, those were his words.
21 Q. Did you see during the Herrmann tenure with
22 the Town, did you see her acting inappropriately, in a
23 sexual manner?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were there occasions when some employees,
38
1 it was someone's birthday and a card would be bought in
2 and signed by various folks in the Town hall and police
3 department?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was it the normal practice for birthdays?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who would buy the card?
8 A. I would buy some, Gina would buy some, Deni
9 would buy some, and we kept them in the drawer. When it
&nbs
|